Hamas Israel War

[jfman]

Originally Posted by Pierre

Pro-rape? Wow, that’s a peach even for you.

I suppose a terrorist sympathiser will say anything as they know the ground they’re on is so weak.

Au contraire, Pierre.

You introduced the idea.

Originally Posted by Pierre

I don't know about you but I'm not for the raping of young women, and cold blooded murder of OAPs and Children.

If you are, then good for you.

Something something terrorist sympathiser something weak ground.

[Pierre]

Originally Posted by jfman

Au contraire, Pierre.

You introduced the idea.

I stand by it. Anybody trying to justify Hamas’s actions must be OK with it?

I’’m not trying to justify anything that the IDF has done in the past but trying equate the despicable isolated actions of bad IDF soldiers, passing them off as systemic to the IDF, to the “planned” and obviously “systemic” atrocities of Hamas is disingenuous and just plain wrong.

I’m not pro-Israel, I’m anti-terrorist.

This rhetoric coming out that Israel had it coming, is bull shit, and anyone that says otherwise is an idiot and a terrorist sympathiser.

This is not how you win peace, but Hamas doesn’t want peace. Israel would negotiate, but it can’t negotiate as Hamas’s terms are the destruction of Israel.

The ball really is in the Palestinians court. Renounce Hamas. Accept Israel’s right to exist, and they may be able to negotiate a future.

Three Islamic nations, two wealthy ones, have already acknowledged Israel. Morocco, Bahrain and the UAE.

This really could be Hamas’s last roll of the dice.

[jfman]

"May be able to negotiate a future"

Doesn't sound very concrete.

It might be Hamas's last roll of the dice but every civilian massacred by Israel in the coming days will be someone's mother, father, brother, sister, etc. There will always be someone willing to carry out a reprisal and always someone else willing to finance it. Try telling them the average Israeli isn't fair.game.

[ianch99]

Originally Posted by Pierre

I stand by it. Anybody trying to justify Hamas’s actions must be OK with it?

I’’m not trying to justify anything that the IDF has done in the past but trying equate the despicable isolated actions of bad IDF soldiers, passing them off as systemic to the IDF, to the “planned” and obviously “systemic” atrocities of Hamas is disingenuous and just plain wrong.

I’m not pro-Israel, I’m anti-terrorist.

This rhetoric coming out that Israel had it coming, is bull shit, and anyone that says otherwise is an idiot and a terrorist sympathiser.

This is not how you win peace, but Hamas doesn’t want peace. Israel would negotiate, but it can’t negotiate as Hamas’s terms are the destruction of Israel.

The ball really is in the Palestinians court. Renounce Hamas. Accept Israel’s right to exist, and they may be able to negotiate a future.

Three Islamic nations, two wealthy ones, have already acknowledged Israel. Morocco, Bahrain and the UAE.

This really could be Hamas’s last roll of the dice.

I agree with a lot of what you say but in terms of you point:

I’m not pro-Israel, I’m anti-terrorist.

In this case, you would clearly condemn the state terrorism that Israel is inflecting on the civilians in Gaza, correct?

[Pierre]

Originally Posted by jfman

"May be able to negotiate a future"

Doesn't sound very concrete.

It isn’t, but carry on this way, there is no future. Not a good one, anyway.

It might be Hamas's last roll of the dice but every civilian massacred by Israel in the coming days will be someone's mother, father, brother, sister, etc.

And that’s different to victims of Hamas in what way?

There will always be someone willing to carry out a reprisal

And that’s different to Israel’s reprisals now, how?

and always someone else willing to finance it.

The IDF is well financed

Try telling them the average Israeli isn't fair.game.

Try telling the average Israeli, they wouldn’t be better off with all Palestinians either removed from Gaza. Or have Gaza under full Israeli control.

It works both ways but the big difference is Israel can and, if necessary, will subjugate Gaza to prevent a reoccurrence of this incident.

Try as it might, Hamas cannot subjugate Israel.

[jfman]

Originally Posted by Pierre

It isn’t, but carry on this way, there is no future. Not a good one, anyway.

And that’s different to victims of Hamas in what way?

And that’s different to Israel’s reprisals now, how?

The IDF is well financed

Try telling the average Israeli, they wouldn’t be better off with all Palestinians either removed from Gaza. Or have Gaza under full Israeli control.

It works both ways but the big difference is Israel can and, if necessary, will subjugate Gaza to prevent a reoccurrence of this incident.

Try as it might, Hamas cannot subjugate Israel.

I don't doubt that there are Israelis for whom nothing short of the genocide of the Palestinian people is an objective. Being a nation state simply legitimises it at the ballot box.

It's not really a question of who has the most money or most resource Hamas aren't really operating at a level they can reasonably expect to eliminate Israel. Neither will their successors. This exercise has demonstrated the innovative and intuitive ways that they can strike Israel where it hurts at a scale nobody expected. The main achievement is psychological. How safe are new settlements going to be?

[Pierre]

Originally Posted by ianch99

In this case, you would clearly condemn the state terrorism that Israel is inflecting on the civilians in Gaza, correct?

If you can point me towards the incidents of state planned and executed acts of terrorism, where they have purely intentionally and purposefully targeted civilians for the sole intention to senselessly kill women and children for no other reason than to make a political point.

Then yes, I would absolutely condemn it.

[jfman]

Originally Posted by Pierre

If you can point me towards the incidents of state planned and executed acts of terrorism, where they have purely intentionally and purposefully targeted civilians for the sole intention to senselessly kill women and children for no other reason than to make a political point.

Then yes, I would absolutely condemn it.

What about bombing a refugee camp and killing scores of civilians as "collateral damage". A price worth paying?

[Pierre]

Originally Posted by jfman

I don't doubt that there are Israelis for whom nothing short of the genocide of the Palestinian people is an objective.

That genocide of the Israelis is the Palestinian objective

Being a nation state simply legitimises it at the ballot box.

The Palestinians appointed Hamas at the ballot box.

It's not really a question of who has the most money or most resource Hamas aren't really operating at a level they can reasonably expect to eliminate Israel.

That was my point.

They can’t eliminate Israel, when you’re in an un-winnable situation, the sensible thing to do is negotiate a way out, that way you may come out with something.

This exercise has demonstrated the innovative and intuitive ways that they can strike Israel where it hurts at a scale nobody expected.

It’s the equivalent of giving Israel an insect bite, not nice and it will irritate for sometime, and Israel will scratch that bite for a long time. They will also be minded to ensure in future they have plenty of insect repellent.

The main achievement is psychological. How safe are new settlements going to be?

Oh, a hell of a lot safer now, thanks to Hamas…………how safe will Gaza be?

[Gavin78]

I think we are on the cusp of a world war, especially since Russia has pulled out of the nuclear treaty and a build up of activity with NK

[Pierre]

Originally Posted by jfman

What about bombing a refugee camp and killing scores of civilians as "collateral damage". A price worth paying?

No no, you’ll have to provide something before this incident. That camp would not have been targeted before Saturday. There may be Hamas operatives in that camp, making it a legitimate target.

I’m pretty sure all the people at the music rave were not legitimate targets, the 3 old women at the bus stop were not IDF or hiding IDF soldiers.

The girl executed in front of her parents and siblings was not an IDF commander.

[jfman]

Originally Posted by Pierre

That genocide of the Israelis is the Palestinian objective

The Palestinians appointed Hamas at the ballot box.

That was my point.

They can’t eliminate Israel, when you’re in an un-winnable situation, the sensible thing to do is negotiate a way out, that way you may come out with something.

It’s the equivalent of giving Israel an insect bite, not nice and it will irritate for sometime, and Israel will scratch that bite for a long time. They will also be minded to ensure in future they have plenty of insect repellent.

Oh, a hell of a lot safer now, thanks to Hamas…………how safe will Gaza be?

How many will take the risk of.living there having seen the brutal rapes and slaughter of their fellow Israelis? The best intelligence services in the world asleep at the wheel and the Iron Dome being caught out by a couple of paragliders with assault rifles doesn't bode well for long term safety at the border zone.

Israelis have a choice where they can live, those in Gaza don't.

---------- Post added at 21:44 ---------- Previous post was at 21:40 ----------

Originally Posted by Pierre

No no, you’ll have to provide something before this incident. That camp would not have been targeted before Saturday. There may be Hamas operatives in that camp, making it a legitimate target.

I’m pretty sure all the people at the music rave were not legitimate targets, the 3 old women at the bus stop were not IDF or hiding IDF soldiers.

The girl executed in front of her parents and siblings was not an IDF commander.

So Israel can commit war crimes but Palestinians have to observe international law. Gotcha.

[Pierre]

Originally Posted by jfman

How many will take the risk of.living there having seen the brutal rapes and slaughter of their fellow Israelis?

No idea, but if you think Israeli security and IDF strength will be lessened by this incident. I know you’re not that daft.

Every future Israel election will be fought off the back of this for decades.

The best intelligence services in the world asleep at the wheel and the Iron Dome being caught out by a couple of paragliders with assault rifles doesn't bode well for long term safety at the border zone.

But it does. The amount of money and resources that will be thrown at this. Hamas have guaranteed maximum attention and resources for the IDF and MOSAD for a generation or two.

Israelis have a choice where they can live, those in Gaza don't.

All Israelis live there despite knowing that all of their neighbours want them dead. They’re not going to flee. Have you not looked at any of their history? They’ll fight for their state.

This will only harden their resolve.

Perhaps, Egypt, Jordan, Iran, Lebanon or Syria will allow Palestinians to relocate to their countries? Been a bit quiet on that front.

[Sephiroth]

Originally Posted by Itshim

Definitely , having been to the area a few times , Israel definitely terrorises the ordinary poeple of Gaza . That said it is not except able action but the world really has no interest in upsetting israel . As it was put to me ,and make of this what you will . What would happen if the UN desided that a group of people need a homeland and moved them in to Yorkshire driving out the people there

Apart from Israel being legally constituted by UN resolution, and nothing of the scenario you mooted applies. The distortion here is not acceptable.

I went to a lot of trouble to describe the regional history and what you say runs contrary to that. Btw, none of the gurus here have disputed my description.

The UN moved nobody into Israel. Before Israel was formed, Jews fled Europe to Palestine (in the mid 1930s) and they formed the Jewish nation nucleus.

If on independence day the Arab neighbours had not declared war, none of what is happening now would have occurred. The Arabs displaced by that day one war were the unfortunate casualties.

As to Gaza, that was Egyptian territory till they declared another war on Israel and they didn't want it back when the eventual peace treaty was signed. Gaza spawned Hamas, and Hamas terrorised Israel. Israel retaliated strongly and that's what you call "terrorises the ordinary people of Gaza" - who voted Hamas into power. Nobody was evicted from Israel to Gaza.

Just remember 7/7 in the UK and you've got Hamas in one.

[Pierre]

Originally Posted by jfman

So Israel can commit war crimes but Palestinians have to observe international law. Gotcha.

Are they committing war crimes? Are you the current sole arbiter at The Hague?