Eurozone will collapse...

[Osem]

I quite agree. The Eurocrats are doing their version of rearranging the deckchairs on the Titanic IMHO.

[Osem]

Tens of thousands of people have been protesting in cities across Germany against a proposed transatlantic trade deal between the EU and the US.
Protesters say the Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership (TTIP) will lower European standards on food and environmental protection, and could lead to outsourcing and job-losses.
Supporters of the deal say it promises to lower tariffs and promote growth.
The demonstrators are also protesting against a similar deal with Canada.
There were large crowds carrying flags and banners in seven German cities, including Berlin, Munich, Hamburg and Frankfurt, all braving cool and wet weather.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-37396796

Let's hope someone in Brussels listens to them. That'd make a nice change eh?...

Originally Posted by Osem

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-37396796

Let's hope someone in Brussels listens to them. That'd make a nice change eh?...

They won't

[Taf]

A group of Central European EU members known as the Visegrad Four is ready to veto any Brexit deal that would limit people's right to work in the UK, Slovakian PM Robert Fico says.
In an interview with the Reuters news agency, Mr Fico said Hungary, Poland, the Czech Republic and Slovakia would be uncompromising in negotiations.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-37396805

Maybe it's because they don't want the Roma back?

[Osem]

They don't want their share of migrants either but I'm not sure they'll get their way. Merkel won't a mini-clique determining her policy for the EU.

In any event nobody seriously starts any negotiation by acquiescing in advance.

[ntluser]

I wonder if they are going to insist that the US complies with the freedom of movement requirement in order to get a trade deal.

[nomadking]

Deals are meant to be a 2-way thing. As the EU is demanding so much from us, perhaps we should demand money from the EU in exchange for easier access to our markets. That might shut them up.

[TheDaddy]

Protests turn nasty in Greece. Thousands of pensioners took to the streets and the police responded with tear gas and baton charges, not to be out done the olds responded in turn by trying to tip a riot van over, many backs and hips were put out in the process

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...-riot-van.html

[Osem]

Originally Posted by nomadking

Deals are meant to be a 2-way thing. As the EU is demanding so much from us, perhaps we should demand money from the EU in exchange for easier access to our markets. That might shut them up.

The EU is used to telling member states what to do, that coupled with their intransigence and is the reason we are where we are. It's right that we should be making demands of our own and they'll just have to live with that. If we can't agree then there'll be a price to pay for them. The outcome will be what it is but the initial economic price, if indeed there is one, has to be seen against the whole and what the UK makes of the new opportunities it finds. As time goes on and the Eurozone's troubles become more apparent again, the decision to get out will look increasingly good IMHO.

I think in all the melee surrounding the referendum result a lot of folk have lost sight of the huge problems the Eurozone has stored up for itself. They're still present and the Deutsche Bank situation is just one manifestation of what lies ahead.

[Mr K]

Salivating at the prospect of the Eurozone collapsing is Europhobia in the extreme. It would badly affect this country aswell (Brexit or no Brexit).

[pip08456]

Originally Posted by Mr K

Salivating at the prospect of the Eurozone collapsing is Europhobia in the extreme. It would badly affect this country aswell (Brexit or no Brexit).

The fact is it will happen like it or not. Add to that those slagging off May for saying we will be having a hard Brexit does not make our bargaining postition worse, in fact quite the opposite.

The EU exports more to us than we do to them, We will be free to source elsewhere, they will have to sell elsewhere unless they are willing to do a deal. If the EU want to write off those exports then hey-ho let them get on with it.

[Osem]

I missed this when on our hols but:

Eurozone woes continue as German exports plunge and French industry deteriorates

German exports fell at the fastest pace in more than a year in July as French industrial production shrank for a third straight month, fuelling fears of a wider eurozone slowdown.

Exports in Germany fell 2.6pc in July compared with June, according to Destatis. This was the biggest fall since August 2015, and compares with expectations for a 0.4pc rise.

The decline was driven by a drop in sales outside the EU, including China and the US, while demand from the UK also fell. June's month-on-month rise of 0.3pc was also revised down to 0.2pc.

Separate data showed French industrial production declined by 0.6pc in July on a monthly basis.

Analysts had expected French production to bounce back following declines in May and June when activity was hit by strike action.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/...-french-indus/

Oh dear, things not so good over there yet then...

---------- Post added at 14:49 ---------- Previous post was at 14:41 ----------

Originally Posted by pip08456

The fact is it will happen like it or not. Add to that those slagging off May for saying we will be having a hard Brexit does not make our bargaining postition worse, in fact quite the opposite.

The EU exports more to us than we do to them, We will be free to source elsewhere, they will have to sell elsewhere unless they are willing to do a deal. If the EU want to write off those exports then hey-ho let them get on with it.

Yes

As for 'salivating' about Eurozone collapse? What utter tosh! I for one would much rather they'd seen the light and reformed but not a chance of that even in the face of Brexit.

Nobody's 'salivating' simply pointing out what's happening just across the water is perfectly legitimate especially since, it already has and will continue to affect the UK adversely, even moreso if we're still shackled to the sinking ship.

Rather than attacking the messengers, maybe it'd be more useful for some people to focus on the flawed EU ideology, political dogma, mismanagement and utter intransigence which has led the Eurozone into this crisis and shows no sign of abating. So much easier to ignore all that and resort to the usual insults though eh? Standard fare for those who can't argue their case...

---------- Post added at 15:07 ---------- Previous post was at 14:49 ----------

Then there's this still simmering away nicely:

Greece is facing another bailout standoff with its creditors amid reports that eurozone countries will refuse to release additional funds to it this month.

Athens has frustrated its peers in the single currency by implementing only two of the 15 reforms that were a condition of last year’s rescue package. EU officials told German daily Handelsblatt that Greece has delayed privatising state assets, adding to the frustrations of eurozone finance ministers who will discuss progress on Friday.

Further funds are due to be disbursed under the European Stability Mechanism (ESM), which will give Greece up to €86bn (£72bn) of financial assistance by 2018 in return for reforms.

https://www.theguardian.com/business...impose-reforms

[Ignitionnet]

Originally Posted by pip08456

The fact is it will happen like it or not. Add to that those slagging off May for saying we will be having a hard Brexit does not make our bargaining postition worse, in fact quite the opposite.

The EU exports more to us than we do to them, We will be free to source elsewhere, they will have to sell elsewhere unless they are willing to do a deal. If the EU want to write off those exports then hey-ho let them get on with it.

Even in case of a 'soft' Brexit we'd be free to source elsewhere.

While it seems some people on here are incapable of grasping this extremely simple concept I'll reiterate that membership of the Single Market as part of the European Economic Area does not mean membership of the Customs Union, so tariffs, trade policies, etc, become a UK competency.

May have some fun sourcing elsewhere though given the day after we leave we'll almost certainly have free trade agreements with no-one and can have tariff-free trade with no-one, while the EU have 53 free trade agreements they can sell through.

The export thing has been done to death but repeating yet again they are over 40% of our exports, we are 10% of theirs

So if you're fine with our writing off 40% of our exports then hey-ho let's get on with it.

You may dogmatically be desperate for a hard Brexit given you've apparently loathed the EU my entire lifetime, those of who are aren't retired or nearly retired would appreciate the opportunity to keep our jobs.

When even that huge fan of the EU Arron Banks prefers EEA membership over a hard Brexit it should give you some idea of just how extreme that view is. Bizarre that it seems to be the direction now.

---------- Post added at 16:23 ---------- Previous post was at 16:09 ----------

Originally Posted by Osem

Rather than attacking the messengers, maybe it'd be more useful for some people to focus on the flawed EU ideology, political dogma, mismanagement and utter intransigence which has led the Eurozone into this crisis and shows no sign of abating. So much easier to ignore all that and resort to the usual insults though eh? Standard fare for those who can't argue their case...

Says the guy who has me on ignore because he can't argue his case. Keep rolling with that virtue signalling.

Many of those who wanted to remain in the EU entirely appreciated it had major issues and wanted to try and resolve them from within. That well known Neocon Yanis Varoufakis gave a talk about it. I loathed and continue to loathe the manner in which they treated Greece and think they have a whole collection of things they have done wrong, Merkel's handling of refugees being one.

I appreciate far easier to just go with the black and white view Brexiteers good, 'Remoaners' bad though.

[pip08456]

Originally Posted by Ignitionnet

The export thing has been done to death but repeating yet again they are over 40% of our exports, we are 10% of theirs.

You keep pressing this 40% 10% argument ad nauseum.

We export about £220 billion in goods and sercives to the other 27 EU member states but import about £290 billion from them.

You speak of the EU as a whole yet there are EU states that import more form us than they export to us.

Conversly there are those who export more to us and who is the biggest one? Surprise, surprise it's that powerhouse of Europe Germany. Try telling them that they'll only lose 10% of their exports if a deal isn't done. Spain, Belgium, France, Italy and Poland are only a little behind.

That is 6 member states that have a lot to lose and it's nowhere near 10% of their GDP. So yes, if they don't want to deal then hey-ho bye bye.

I presume you will accept a graph published by the ONT in 2015 as proof.

Resolve them how i keep hearing how we should have stayed in reformed from within but no one has come up with a practical how we'd have done that given the EU has shown zero interest in reforming even after the UK votes to leave still not a hint of meaningful reform. The EU has one goal and only oneway to get there and if you don't agree with it tough because there's only oneway how do you even start to attempt reform when that's the attitude.

When the EU collapses because it is a case of when not if it won't be celebrated anywhere as a great many people will suffer because of it and if I'd honestly believed the EU was prepared to reform and adapt to the world we're in I'd have voted remain as i think many others would have. We've had this whole "reform from within" for twenty years and nothing has come from it no changes the progression has continued exactly as the EU always intended.

Voting for brexit wasn't ideal far from it but of the two options it was better then continued membership of a broken organisation completely out of touch with it's citizens. There will be tough times ahead economically although i don't think they will be as tough as some predict and on the day we formally leave the EU some are going to be surprised at the trade deals that will come into play and the opportunities we have available to us.