Hamas Israel War

[nomadking]

Originally Posted by jfman

The Israeli Government “cannot confirm” claims by the Israeli Defence Forces that babies were beheaded.

https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2023/10/12/m...ntl/index.html

The US Government have also walked back President Biden’s claim that he had actually seen photos.

“There have been cases of Hamas militants carrying out beheadings and other ISIS-style atrocities. However, we cannot confirm if the victims were men or women, soldiers or civilians, adults or children,” the official said.
Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu indicated that people had been beheaded by Hamas in an appearance beside Secretary of State Antony Blinken on Thursday, but did not specify if they were children.
...
His office later released what it described as “horrifying photos of babies murdered and burned by the Hamas monsters.”
The three photos showed two babies whose bodies had been burned beyond recognition and a third infant’s bloodstained body.

...

“We got very very disturbing reports that came from the ground that there were babies that had been beheaded… I think we can now say with relative confidence that unfortunately this is what happened in Be’eri,” he said.

[jfman]

That’s merely repeating the IDF claim that the Israeli government has not corroborated. Selectively quoting the article does not change that.

[nomadking]

Originally Posted by jfman

That’s merely repeating the IDF claim that the Israeli government has not corroborated. Selectively quoting the article does not change that.

So what else does the "unfortunately this is what happened" refer to?

[Gavin78]

This is no different than what Russia is doing yet here we are America flexing it's military with an aircraft carrier that could flatten a whole country.

[jfman]

Originally Posted by nomadking

So what else does the "unfortunately this is what happened" refer to?

It’s helpful if you don’t selectively quote.

An IDF spokesman, Jonathan Conricus, later in the day said terrorists had likely carried out decapitations of babies in the Be’eri kibbutz.

“We got very very disturbing reports that came from the ground that there were babies that had been beheaded… I think we can now say with relative confidence that unfortunately this is what happened in Be’eri,” he said.

This is the IDF claim as yet uncorroborated.

https://www.jpost.com/breaking-news/article-767951

Photos of babies being burnt, decapitated confirmed

The photos were shown to US Secretary of State Antony Blinken during his visit to Israel on Thursday.

By TZVI JOFFRE OCTOBER 12, 2023 16:37
Updated: OCTOBER 12, 2023 19:46

The Jerusalem Post can now confirm based on verified photos of the bodies that the reports of babies being burnt and decapitated in Hamas's assault on Kfar Aza are correct. May their memory be a blessing.

The photos were shown to US Secretary of State Antony Blinken during his visit to Israel on Thursday by the Public Diplomacy Directorate in the Prime Minister's Office. Later in the day, the photos were published by the Prime Minister's Office on Twitter. The photos are graphic and have a content warning covering them until a button reading "show" is pressed.

Originally Posted by jfman

This is the IDF claim as yet uncorroborated.

If your reaction to the slaughter of babies is to quibble over the method, your moral compass is deeply fecked.

[jfman]

Originally Posted by Chris

If your reaction to the slaughter of babies is to quibble over the method, your moral compass is deeply fecked.

Oh it isn’t - be it the bullet or the bombs raining down on Gaza I absolutely condemn.

However if you are asking me if the IDF, currently slaughtering children in Gaza, depriving a civilian population in the millions of water, energy and food, could have manufactured it to evoke an emotional response in the rest of the world then (on the basis of the CNN article at the time) I’d not have ruled it out.

Having spent days reading heroic stories of a fighter pilot who didn’t exist shooting down planes that never flew over Kyiv forgive me for keeping my cynical eye over wartime propaganda.

[Pierre]

Just reading over this thread, and Twitter and other sources. It’s just depressing.

Babies beheaded, children beheaded and burnt alive. Children executed in front of parents, young women raped, families tortured………….

Oh but, what about, what about, I’ll raise you women and children bombed, babies under rubble, cutting off water, food, fuel, power,

Equivalence?

In WWII, the allies did some bad things. Was Dresden necessary? Was Hiroshima and Nagasaki necessary? ( US fire bombing actually killed more people in Japan). The allies did bad things. But were they evil?

War is nasty and horrible, don’t expect reasonable outcomes or actions.

But consider evil……….

The Nazi death camps were evil. Anyone that has watched the footage when the allies first entered those camps will have seen hell on Earth. When the allies made the local German residents walk around the death camps their reactions said it all.

Israel have done and are now doing things that are nasty and arguably vindictive, but are they Evil?

Beheading children, burning them alive, executing them in front of their families, that is evil.

Let’s say Hamas, was big enough and powerful enough to totally invade and take over Israel. Based on what just happened, We would witness another holocaust, they would kill in cold blood every Jew. Men, women and children. Just like the Nazis.

Could you say the same of Israel to Palestinians? Israel are already the big and powerful for over 70 years and still no genocide.

So I find no equivalence between what Hamas have done and what Israel have done. Both have done very bad things. But I find only one to be evil.

[Jaymoss]

Hiroshima and Nagasaki were weighed and measured to save American lives. There is no question Japan could have been invaded but just look at the mentality of the Japanese military during the conflict. They would not have stopped fighting death meant nothing but honour to them. I believe less people died from the A bombs than would have done had there been an invasion

Hamas are not a national military at war with Israel they are a terrorist organisation. If Hamas was a national army then Israel would have invaded Palestine a long time ago

[jfman]

Depriving millions of people food, water and energy as a form of collective punishment while raining down bombs is absolutely evil, Pierre. The Israeli Air Force puts the number at 6,000 already. The parallels between the war crimes committed on the Palestinian people, for the sole reason of who they are and where they are born, and the Holocaust are clear.

The hypothetical that Hamas would destroy Israel is just that - a thought experiment. They lack the numbers and meaningful advanced technology to achieve that through warfare. What they would do otherwise is a red herring.

I do agree on this point: war is nasty and horrible, don’t expect reasonable outcomes or actions. When terror groups fight back according to their limited technological capability and skill sets (essentially brutality) nobody can truly be surprised. Anyone who genuinely claims if bombs rained down on their towns or cities, killing friends and family members, men, women, children alike, that vengeance wouldn’t be the natural destination for at best a sizeable minority and at worst a majority is lying.

[Jaymoss]

Originally Posted by jfman

Depriving millions of people food, water and energy as a form of collective punishment while raining down bombs is absolutely evil, Pierre. The Israeli Air Force puts the number at 6,000 already. The parallels between the war crimes committed on the Palestinian people, for the sole reason of who they are and where they are born, and the Holocaust are clear.

The hypothetical that Hamas would destroy Israel is just that - a thought experiment. They lack the numbers and meaningful advanced technology to achieve that through warfare. What they would do otherwise is a red herring.

I do agree on this point: war is nasty and horrible, don’t expect reasonable outcomes or actions. When terror groups fight back according to their limited technological capability and skill sets (essentially brutality) nobody can truly be surprised.

Hamas knew Israel were going to hit back hard. If you poke an angry dog who is to blame when the dog bites??

[jfman]

Originally Posted by Jaymoss

Hamas knew Israel were going to hit back hard. If you poke an angry who is to blame when the dog bites??

Israel aren’t an angry dog. How, where and when Israel react are decisions taken by human beings making conscious choices.

[Jaymoss]

Originally Posted by jfman

Israel aren’t an angry dog. How, where and when Israel react are decisions taken by human beings making conscious choices.

Look above your head and you might find my point

Would have helped if I had not missed the first dog out haha

[Pierre]

Originally Posted by jfman

Depriving millions of people food, water and energy as a form of collective punishment while raining down bombs is absolutely evil, Pierre. The Israeli Air Force puts the number at 6,000 already. The parallels between the war crimes committed on the Palestinian people, for the sole reason of who they are and where they are born, and the Holocaust are clear.

This will be my last post tonight and I’ll pick it tomorrow if required.

I don’t think that you can draw any parallels between what Palestinians are going through now or have been through in the past and the Holocaust. They not at all comparable….at all.

The hypothetical that Hamas would destroy Israel is just that - a thought experiment. They lack the numbers and meaningful advanced technology to achieve that through warfare. What they would do otherwise is a red herring.

Well, we know they can’t do it now. But their mindset is of that. If they could they bloody well would. Israel is 100% surrounded…completely….by states that want to see them destroyed.

When terror groups fight back according to their limited technological capability and skill sets (essentially brutality) nobody can truly be surprised.

Well, call me old school. I can get along with brutality. But I was surprised when babies and toddlers were beheaded. There is nothing normal about that. Perhaps if Gengis Khan was behind the attacks I could understand.

Anyone who genuinely claims if bombs rained down on their towns or cities, killing friends and family members, men, women, children alike, that vengeance wouldn’t be the natural destination for at best a sizeable minority and at worst a majority is lying.

And there you have it.

Replace bombs raining down from Israel to executing children and babies by Hamas and you have the exact same point. Is Israeli vengeance the “natural destination”?

Insert Spiderman meme here.