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The Welsh language
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Old 13-08-2017, 22:33   #46
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Re: "The Welsh language

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Originally Posted by OLD BOY View Post
From the rest of the world, Russ.
Who in Wales feels isolatated due to them speaking Welsh?
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Old 14-08-2017, 00:37   #47
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Re: The Welsh language

I think the point he was making is that welsh people need to have english as well to interact outside of wales where very few if any people speak welsh. There are ignorant people everywhere amongst all languages it's not specific to any one group. While i think it's right that the government in wales does what it can to preserve the language and culture it shouldn't be forced on kids.
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Old 14-08-2017, 06:58   #48
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Re: The Welsh language

Is there really a perception that in Wales there are children growing up only speaking Welsh and not knowing any English at all?
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Old 14-08-2017, 11:52   #49
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Re: The Welsh language

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Originally Posted by Russ View Post
Is there really a perception that in Wales there are children growing up only speaking Welsh and not knowing any English at all?

The reality is that kids are being educated in Welsh, but switch back to English as soon as they walk out the school gates because their mates speak English, their computer games are in English, the films they see and the music they want to listen to are in English. And after their schooldays, most work is in English.

And no legislation is going to change that. Those that want the language to prosper should do so by winning the hearts and minds of people, not by making it law.

But political groups don't want that, they want allegiance to their cause by playing on nationalistic sentiment. And we all know what happened when that sort of mass brainwashing happened in Europe, and why many refer to Welsh language activists as language nazis....
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Old 14-08-2017, 14:03   #50
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Re: The Welsh language

Many Welsh kids I knew were comfortable in both languages. Having the ability to use more than one language is a huge advantage. Kids in England learn English and use that, then at some point they learn a "second" or "third" in school but many do not actually get to use it.

So let's promote the use of Welsh in schools, keep the language living. Kids will still pick up and use English.
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Old 14-08-2017, 14:21   #51
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Re: The Welsh language

I have no problem with people talking Welsh, even if i'm in a pub whilst they do it. I don't understand really having much of an issue there. In major cities you'll hear many different languages being spoken and so long as they're polite enough to speak English when specifically conversing with you then who cares how they talk to each other?

I don't understand schools teaching in Welsh though, the vast majority of the country speaks English so surely it's better to concentrate on that whilst having Welsh as an additional language you can learn in a specific class? I can understand schools teaching in another language if they're some sort of ex-pat school, i.e a French school in London whose pupils are largely intending to go back in France, but not for normal UK schooling....
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Old 14-08-2017, 14:43   #52
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Re: The Welsh language

But using Welsh is schools as opposed to simply teaching it enforces the language. You can learn it better and how it's used rather than enough to pass an exam or basic conversation. And Welsh is the language of Wales even if there are so many invaders that English is used more.
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Old 14-08-2017, 19:06   #53
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Re: The Welsh language

I am from North Wales, I speak Welsh (self-taught) and I have lived in Cardiff and I now live in Merseyside. I also have a degree in Linguistics and I am a secondary English teacher in a Welsh school. The perception of Welsh in South East Wales is vastly different to the approach we have in the North - nonsensical discussions on the 'purpose' of the language don't really happen up here. Our languages merely co-exist and flow together, whether you're from a bilingual family or English-only.

However I'd like to clear a few things up on the Welsh education system:
  • All Welsh kids (in English medium AND Welsh medium schools) study English first language and most achieve GCSE English Language and GCSE English Literature.
  • Those in English-medium schools receive Welsh second language and all must study at least the half-GCSE Welsh Second Language (short course). Many schools opt to do the GCSE Welsh Second Language (full course) as an option. These second-language courses are taught like any other modern foreign language.
  • Those in Welsh-medium schools receive Welsh first language taught as an equivalent to English. Most kids are then entered for GCSE Welsh Language and GCSE Welsh Literature.

By law, all pupils in Wales must study Welsh until age 16 through one of the channels mentioned above. Disapplying a pupil from GCSE Welsh is the same procedure as disapplication from GCSE English and is rarely done.

Subsequently, those pupils who go to Welsh-medium schools have more GCSEs upon leaving secondary education. There have been many, many studies on the effects of bilinguialism, and the majority indicate (this is not specific to Welsh) bilingualism benefits language skills in both languages. Moreover, most of the world's population is multilingual, and much of the Anglophone world is in minority being monolingual. You will find that the majority of classes in Welsh-medium schools take a bilingual approach, especially with subject-specific jargon as we understand that the vast majority of higher education takes place in English ("sandwiching" is the educational term we use for bilingualism term introductions).

I always teach my pupils that English has an absolutely shocking spelling system (pidgin Anglo-Saxon-Latin-French-British) but incredibly easy grammar; Welsh on the other hand has exceptionally easy spelling (like Spanish), but more difficult grammar. Incidentally, I have come across pupils who are dyslexic in one language but not in the other. Languages, their social histories, their evolution and their psychological bases absolutely fascinates me. If we were purely going on language 'usefulness', why are we not all learning Mandarin Chinese, Arabic or Hindi, which indeed have far greater number of speakers than German or French? English is a lingua-franca; it is an essential skill in a globalised world, but we must not be complacent and accept that English is not the only (nor the largest) lingua-franca. People who have absolutely no understanding of the Welsh (or any other minority) language, its history and culture provide little credibility in language-bashing rants I'm afraid.

As for switching languages mid-conversation... this is called code-switching, which occurs in multilingual speakers of any language. It is an extremely complex (so much so it is hard to document and study) sociological-psychological phenomenon that is determined by a mixture of external factors. You will find most bilingual speakers speak to each person only in one language (the one in which they first met and talked). To change that is extremely 'odd', almost seeming taboo, and an almost unbreakable maxim. Codeswitching is so ingrained, bilingual speakers are often unaware they are doing it and it can occur in the strangest of moments. Where there are more people of one common language, people will of course accommodate to a shared code, but it is often difficult to sustain where two speakers share close and ingrained bonds in one language.

Last edited by alestescarrow; 14-08-2017 at 19:30.
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Old 14-08-2017, 19:24   #54
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Re: The Welsh language

Quote:
Originally Posted by Russ View Post
Well who’da thunk it....

Seriously, no English or non-Welsh person can expect to be taken seriously when making any comment that implies the Welsh language has little/no value and should not furthered or spoken as much in Wales.

Would you go in to someone’s house and tell them to not speak their own language? I doubt any of you would be as rude.

Apparently it seems like the vast majority of English people (or apparently someone they know) have walked in to a pub in Wales where English is being spoken but as soon as the punters or staff twig where they’re from, conversation immediately turns to Welsh - amazingly nobody seems able to name this inhospitable pub - if that indeed does happen then those changing from English to Welsh are displaying massive ignorance, arrogance and deserve any drop in trade their behaviour creates.
It was a light hearted comment about the volume of their radios. It doesn't bother me as it's not done late at night.

---------- Post added at 17:21 ---------- Previous post was at 17:15 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien View Post
I have no problem with people talking Welsh, even if i'm in a pub whilst they do it. I don't understand really having much of an issue there. In major cities you'll hear many different languages being spoken and so long as they're polite enough to speak English when specifically conversing with you then who cares how they talk to each other?

I don't understand schools teaching in Welsh though, the vast majority of the country speaks English so surely it's better to concentrate on that whilst having Welsh as an additional language you can learn in a specific class? I can understand schools teaching in another language if they're some sort of ex-pat school, i.e a French school in London whose pupils are largely intending to go back in France, but not for normal UK schooling....
Welsh is a UK language, but I do have a problem with the amount of foreign languages now being spoken in the UK overall, for which I blame unfettered immigration.

It causes practical problems and costs eg the police money on translation services that would be better spent elsewhere.

As well as the practical problems posed, it's a question of good manners too. When I was a young man I intended to move to Holland. The first thing that I did to prepare was to take lessons in Dutch. A friend who was already there worked in a hotel and (quite rightly) was told to learn Dutch as a condition of keeping his job. They gave him a maximum of 6 months, which he complied with.

---------- Post added at 17:24 ---------- Previous post was at 17:21 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by alestescarrow View Post
I am from North Wales, I speak Welsh (self-taught) and I have lived in Cardiff and I now live in Merseyside. I also have a degree in Linguistics and I am a secondary English teacher in a Welsh school. The perception of Welsh in South East Wales is vastly different to the approach we have in the North - nonsensical discussions on the 'purpose' of the language don't really happen up here. Our languages merely co-exist and flow together, whether you're from a bilingual family or English-only.

However I'd like to clear a few things up on the Welsh education system:
  • All Welsh kids (in English medium AND Welsh medium schools) study English first language and most achieve GCSE English Language and GCSE English Literature.
  • Those in English-medium schools receive Welsh second language and all must study at least the half-GCSE in Welsh Short Course. Many schools opt to do the GCSE Welsh Second Language full course also.
  • Those in Welsh-medium schools receive Welsh first language taught as an equivalent to English. Most kids are then entered for GCSE Welsh Language and GCSE Welsh Literature.

By law, all pupils in Wales must study Welsh until age 16 through one of the channels mentioned above. Disapplying a pupil from GCSE Welsh is the same procedure as disapplication from GCSE English and is rarely done.

Subsequently, those pupils who go to Welsh-medium schools have more GCSEs upon leaving secondary education. There have been many, many studies on the effects of bilinguialism, and the majority indicate (this is not specific to Welsh) bilingualism benefits language skills in both languages. Moreover, most of the world's population is multilingual, and much of the Anglophone world is in minority being monolingual. You will find that the majority of classes in Welsh-medium schools take a bilingual approach, especially with subject-specific jargon as we understand that the vast majority of higher education takes place in English ("sandwiching" is the educational term we use for bilingualism term introductions).

I always teach my pupils that English has an absolutely shocking spelling system (pidgin Anglo-Saxon-Latin-French-British) but incredibly easy grammar; Welsh on the other hand has exceptionally easy spelling (like Spanish), but more difficult grammar. Incidentally, I have come across pupils who are dyslexic in one language but not in the other. Languages, their social histories, their evolution and their psychological bases absolutely fascinates me. If we were purely going on language 'usefulness', why are we not all learning Mandarin Chinese, Arabic or Hindi, which indeed have far greater number of speakers than German or French? English is a lingua-franca; it is an essential skill in a globalised world, but we must not be complacent and accept that English is not the only (nor the largest) lingua-franca. People who have absolutely no understanding of the Welsh (or any other minority) language, its history and culture provide little credibility in language-bashing rants I'm afraid.
Good to know that Welsh children learn English as a matter of course. If this is attained, I don't suppose it's any different to learning French at school like I and many others did.
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Old 14-08-2017, 20:32   #55
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Re: The Welsh language

Quote:
Originally Posted by RichardCoulter View Post
Welsh is a UK language, but I do have a problem with the amount of foreign languages now being spoken in the UK overall, for which I blame unfettered immigration.

It causes practical problems and costs eg the police money on translation services that would be better spent elsewhere.
I didn't say they shouldn't be able to speak English, just that I'm not bothered if people speak another language to each other. Welsh or anything else.

---------- Post added at 19:32 ---------- Previous post was at 19:32 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by RichardCoulter View Post
Good to know that Welsh children learn English as a matter of course. If this is attained, I don't suppose it's any different to learning French at school like I and many others did.
It would be crazy if they didn't learn English.
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Old 14-08-2017, 21:15   #56
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Re: The Welsh language

Quote:
Originally Posted by alestescarrow View Post
I am from North Wales, I speak Welsh (self-taught) and I have lived in Cardiff and I now live in Merseyside. I also have a degree in Linguistics and I am a secondary English teacher in a Welsh school. The perception of Welsh in South East Wales is vastly different to the approach we have in the North - nonsensical discussions on the 'purpose' of the language don't really happen up here. Our languages merely co-exist and flow together, whether you're from a bilingual family or English-only.

However I'd like to clear a few things up on the Welsh education system:
  • All Welsh kids (in English medium AND Welsh medium schools) study English first language and most achieve GCSE English Language and GCSE English Literature.
  • Those in English-medium schools receive Welsh second language and all must study at least the half-GCSE Welsh Second Language (short course). Many schools opt to do the GCSE Welsh Second Language (full course) as an option. These second-language courses are taught like any other modern foreign language.
  • Those in Welsh-medium schools receive Welsh first language taught as an equivalent to English. Most kids are then entered for GCSE Welsh Language and GCSE Welsh Literature.

By law, all pupils in Wales must study Welsh until age 16 through one of the channels mentioned above. Disapplying a pupil from GCSE Welsh is the same procedure as disapplication from GCSE English and is rarely done.

Subsequently, those pupils who go to Welsh-medium schools have more GCSEs upon leaving secondary education. There have been many, many studies on the effects of bilinguialism, and the majority indicate (this is not specific to Welsh) bilingualism benefits language skills in both languages. Moreover, most of the world's population is multilingual, and much of the Anglophone world is in minority being monolingual. You will find that the majority of classes in Welsh-medium schools take a bilingual approach, especially with subject-specific jargon as we understand that the vast majority of higher education takes place in English ("sandwiching" is the educational term we use for bilingualism term introductions).

I always teach my pupils that English has an absolutely shocking spelling system (pidgin Anglo-Saxon-Latin-French-British) but incredibly easy grammar; Welsh on the other hand has exceptionally easy spelling (like Spanish), but more difficult grammar. Incidentally, I have come across pupils who are dyslexic in one language but not in the other. Languages, their social histories, their evolution and their psychological bases absolutely fascinates me. If we were purely going on language 'usefulness', why are we not all learning Mandarin Chinese, Arabic or Hindi, which indeed have far greater number of speakers than German or French? English is a lingua-franca; it is an essential skill in a globalised world, but we must not be complacent and accept that English is not the only (nor the largest) lingua-franca. People who have absolutely no understanding of the Welsh (or any other minority) language, its history and culture provide little credibility in language-bashing rants I'm afraid.

As for switching languages mid-conversation... this is called code-switching, which occurs in multilingual speakers of any language. It is an extremely complex (so much so it is hard to document and study) sociological-psychological phenomenon that is determined by a mixture of external factors. You will find most bilingual speakers speak to each person only in one language (the one in which they first met and talked). To change that is extremely 'odd', almost seeming taboo, and an almost unbreakable maxim. Codeswitching is so ingrained, bilingual speakers are often unaware they are doing it and it can occur in the strangest of moments. Where there are more people of one common language, people will of course accommodate to a shared code, but it is often difficult to sustain where two speakers share close and ingrained bonds in one language.
Very interesting and informative post. The switching from Welsh to English, I've noticed in the Welsh soap opera 'Pobol y cwm' (great entertainment if you get the chance on S4C ). The fact it's something the Welsh do in common language is why maybe the English shouldn't get offended and assume it's something to do with them.
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Old 14-08-2017, 21:47   #57
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Re: The Welsh language

Who are these english who get offended that welsh people speak welsh in wales I've been to wales a few times and never gave it a second thought when some spoke in welsh. There might be a few who get put out and i do mean a few but every nationality has that few they are called idiots and occur in all nationalities.
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Old 14-08-2017, 22:15   #58
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Re: The Welsh language

Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien View Post
I didn't say they shouldn't be able to speak English, just that I'm not bothered if people speak another language to each other. Welsh or anything else.[COLOR="Silver"]

It would be crazy if they didn't learn English.
Well, I'm tired of hearing foreign languages being spoken whenever I'm in urban areas (Welsh is different as it is in fact a UK language).

You'd be surprised how many foreigners speak no or very little English (especially when it's convenient to them).

---------- Post added at 20:15 ---------- Previous post was at 20:11 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by RizzyKing View Post
Who are these english who get offended that welsh people speak welsh in wales I've been to wales a few times and never gave it a second thought when some spoke in welsh. There might be a few who get put out and i do mean a few but every nationality has that few they are called idiots and occur in all nationalities.
I've been to Wales many times and never come across this either. It wouldn't be good for Welsh businesses or tourism either if someone refused to speak in English* if able to do so to an English person.

* Which I would expect them to be able to do given that they learn English at school as a matter of course.
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Old 14-08-2017, 22:53   #59
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Re: The Welsh language

Quote:
Originally Posted by RizzyKing View Post
Who are these english who get offended that welsh people speak welsh in wales I've been to wales a few times and never gave it a second thought when some spoke in welsh. There might be a few who get put out and i do mean a few but every nationality has that few they are called idiots and occur in all nationalities.
Spot on - but it always helps with the ‘persecude Englander’ complex a lot of them have.
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Old 15-08-2017, 02:50   #60
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Re: The Welsh language

I live in the middle of England. I primarily speak English. I can usually greet and do pleasantries in another language and ask for things.
I find that other countries are far more eloquent in my home language than I am in theirs.
I respect that.

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