US Timeline : V - 2009 : Season 1

[Stuart]

Originally Posted by moroboshi

Come off it, the message was loud and clear. When in times of crisis, come to church! Great stuff, so logical.

Guess what. In times of crisis or other momentous events, some people DO turn to their God for guidance. For the show to pretend otherwise would actually be unrealistic.

Athiests just prefer not to have religion shoved into their faces, and given how deeply unpleasant it is I don't think that's an unreasonable request.

I'm an atheist, and I didn't find it too bad.

Originally Posted by moroboshi

Come off it, the message was loud and clear. When in times of crisis, come to church! Great stuff, so logical.

I think you're just reading your own prejudices onto the story. If you weren't, you might not have missed the great big crucifix that fell to the ground and shattered right at the start of the episode, or the significance of one of the church's very few long-term, committed members rising from his wheelchair, whilst in the church building, and giving the credit to the alien visitors rather than God.

The writers are observing that, in times of crisis, people do turn to God. That's plain fact; the churches of New York were packed after 9/11. However they are also posing big questions about faith and whether the existence of alien life would prove that there is no God after all (hence the falling crucifix). We are invited, in the first episode's closing scenes, to ponder these issues with the two central characters whose faith has just been shattered: the priest riven with doubt and the FBI officer who just discovered her trusted friend and partner is a lizard. Who deserves our devotion?

This episode is anything but a rallying cry for God, church or any other religion.

Episode 2 was quite good I think. Not a great deal happens I spose but its building the characters

[moroboshi]

Originally Posted by Chris

I think you're just reading your own prejudices onto the story. If you weren't, you might not have missed the great big crucifix that fell to the ground and shattered right at the start of the episode, or the significance of one of the church's very few long-term, committed members rising from his wheelchair, whilst in the church building, and giving the credit to the alien visitors rather than God.

The writers are observing that, in times of crisis, people do turn to God. That's plain fact; the churches of New York were packed after 9/11. However they are also posing big questions about faith and whether the existence of alien life would prove that there is no God after all (hence the falling crucifix). We are invited, in the first episode's closing scenes, to ponder these issues with the two central characters whose faith has just been shattered: the priest riven with doubt and the FBI officer who just discovered her trusted friend and partner is a lizard. Who deserves our devotion?

This episode is anything but a rallying cry for God, church or any other religion.

'Prejudice' is unfair, as to dislike religion is entirely rational and sensible. I equate it to disliking racism, sexism, and homophobia. A fear and dislike of an unpleasant, unfair, and primate set of beliefs is entirely reasonable, and is far from being a prejudice. Quite the opposite in fact.

I dislike seeing religion on TV when it is shown in a positive context, and that is exactly how I saw it in V. The falling cross was pretty irrelevant as it did no harm, and the show then went on to show the church packed with new devotees. Why show this? Why not show the rational of society instead questioning the science of the aliens? Why focus on the stupid? (sorry for the crude term, but a lack of intelligence and belief in 'god' are directly linked (look it up, it's a proven fact))

I believe it was there to appease the far right in the US, who have become increasingly demanding over the past decade or so and want to see their own particular brand of delusion forced into everything, whether it serves for plot or not.

If you saw it another way, that's fine, but for me it was one of many negative points for the V reboot, and why I haven't bothered getting episode 2.

Originally Posted by Chris

I think you're just reading your own prejudices onto the story. If you weren't, you might not have missed the great big crucifix that fell to the ground and shattered right at the start of the episode, or the significance of one of the church's very few long-term, committed members rising from his wheelchair, whilst in the church building, and giving the credit to the alien visitors rather than God.

The writers are observing that, in times of crisis, people do turn to God. That's plain fact; the churches of New York were packed after 9/11. However they are also posing big questions about faith and whether the existence of alien life would prove that there is no God after all (hence the falling crucifix). We are invited, in the first episode's closing scenes, to ponder these issues with the two central characters whose faith has just been shattered: the priest riven with doubt and the FBI officer who just discovered her trusted friend and partner is a lizard. Who deserves our devotion?

This episode is anything but a rallying cry for God, church or any other religion.

I personally think the other priest or whatever rank he carries is a V anyway think that is why he is so positive towards them

Originally Posted by moroboshi

'Prejudice' is unfair, as to dislike religion is entirely rational and sensible. I equate it to disliking racism, sexism, and homophobia. A fear and dislike of an unpleasant, unfair, and primate set of beliefs is entirely reasonable, and is far from being a prejudice. Quite the opposite in fact.

Then you misunderstand the meaning of 'prejudice'. In your assessment of the first episode of 'V' you have allowed your views on religion to colour your opinion of the entire episode. You have allowed your views on religion to misconstrue the storyteller's intent as being entirely the opposite of what it was.

I dislike seeing religion on TV when it is shown in a positive context, and that is exactly how I saw it in V.

Because you're prejudiced. Religion is getting quite a neutral treatment in the programme, I think. It seems to me that you're inclined to see any appearance of religion - except perhaps as the subject of a Richard Dawkins lecture - as being in a 'positive context'. It's a pity because despite its faults it was quite a good episode, and episode 2 has already bedded in some interesting themes quite nicely. You're missing out.

The falling cross was pretty irrelevant as it did no harm,

You misunderstand the artform of movie directing, in that case. The falling cross in episode 1 is a symbol for the foundations of religion being challenged by the arrival of aliens, who are totally outside of the natural reading of any of the world's major religious texts.

and the show then went on to show the church packed with new devotees. Why show this? Why not show the rational of society instead questioning the science of the aliens?

Because the portrayal of a packed church in times of crisis has a direct and recent analogy in the real world. I mentioned 9/11 in my earlier post. It happened.

You ask why not show 'the rational' of society: you already have your answer, again in 9/11. When big and unsettling things happen, the human race shows itself to be instinctively religious. I'm sorry if that upsets your rational world-view, but I didn't invent human nature. It is what it is.

Why focus on the stupid? (sorry for the crude term, but a lack of intelligence and belief in 'god' are directly linked (look it up, it's a proven fact))

Do you really, in all seriousness, believe that? Well, apparently you do. I'm not going to look it up, by the way. Instead I'm going to ask you for a link to back up what I perceive to be simply more prejudice, and I'm going to be a little puzzled at someone apparently so devoted to rationalism and yet so quick to deploy unwise language such as 'proven fact'.

Would you like me to supply you with a list of some of the world's well known, highly intelligent religious people? People like Nicholas Copernicus, for example, who proposed the heliocentric view of our solar system and yet was also ordained in the Catholic Church? Sir Francis Bacon, who proposed and established the scientific method yet believed "It is true, that a little philosophy inclineth man’s mind to atheism, but depth in philosophy bringeth men's minds about to religion"? I could go on, at great length, but let's not get off topic. We're meant to be discussing the merits of a sci-fi TV show.

I believe it was there to appease the far right in the US, who have become increasingly demanding over the past decade or so and want to see their own particular brand of delusion forced into everything, whether it serves for plot or not.

You misunderstand American culture, which is far more religious, and more openly so, than British. It's not simply a preoccupation of the far right, it is quite mainstream. All the show makers have done is portray mainstream New Yorkers doing what mainstream New Yorkers do.

If you saw it another way, that's fine, but for me it was one of many negative points for the V reboot, and why I haven't bothered getting episode 2.

That's a real pity. As I said, it has bedded in very quickly and episode 2 has taken on themes of paranoia and uncertainty with a level of skill and subtlety the original series never got close to. It is shaping up nicely and I'd urge you to reconsider watching part 2, if you're a sci-fi fan. Even though one of the main characters is a Catholic priest.

[Stuart]

Originally Posted by moroboshi

'Prejudice' is unfair, as to dislike religion is entirely rational and sensible. I equate it to disliking racism, sexism, and homophobia. A fear and dislike of an unpleasant, unfair, and primate set of beliefs is entirely reasonable, and is far from being a prejudice. Quite the opposite in fact.

No, it's not the opposite. You are judging people according to your own ideas of their beliefs. It's the very definition of Prejudice.. Look it up.

The second episode of V is a little slow, but is progressing the story nicely. And, it doesn't feature religion too much.

[moroboshi]

Originally Posted by Chris

Do you really, in all seriousness, believe that? Well, apparently you do. I'm not going to look it up, by the way. Instead I'm going to ask you for a link to back up what I perceive to be simply more prejudice, and I'm going to be a little puzzled at someone apparently so devoted to rationalism and yet so quick to deploy unwise language such as 'proven fact'.

Would you like me to supply you with a list of some of the world's well known, highly intelligent religious people? People like Nicholas Copernicus, for example, who proposed the heliocentric view of our solar system and yet was also ordained in the Catholic Church? Sir Francis Bacon, who proposed and established the scientific method yet believed "It is true, that a little philosophy inclineth man’s mind to atheism, but depth in philosophy bringeth men's minds about to religion"? I could go on, at great length, but let's not get off topic. We're meant to be discussing the merits of a sci-fi TV show.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...ve-in-God.html

Also, this is an excellent debate (split into 5 parts on YouTube) with Stephen Fry, Christopher Hitchens and others on whether the catholic church is a good thing. - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XNODi...layer_embedded

And do you really want to go down the pahh of naming famous athiests/religious people? - http://www.celebatheists.com/wiki/Main_Page I think with the likes of Richard Dawkins, Douglas Adams, Stephen Fry, Richard Branson, David Attenbrough, John Carmack, Bob Geldof, James Randi, Steve Wozniac, and Woody Allen I'm in good company.

To bring this back on topic, I'm not going to watch any more V. Even if the religious nonsense wasn't there it would still have been poorly paced, generic sci-fi which didn't engage me.

Originally Posted by moroboshi

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...ve-in-God.html

Also, this is an excellent debate (split into 5 parts on YouTube) with Stephen Fry, Christopher Hitchens and others on whether the catholic church is a good thing. - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XNODi...layer_embedded

And do you really want to go down the pahh of naming famous athiests/religious people? - http://www.celebatheists.com/wiki/Main_Page

Not at all. I'm not here to defend the Catholic church. I'm not here to suggest that only religious people can be intelligent. I am here, however, to show that your claim that "lack of intelligence and belief in 'god' are directly linked" is patent nonsense.

No list of famous atheists will substantiate your claim, however only a very short list of intelligent religious people is enough to prove it wrong. And there I both rest my case and insist we both now drop it and return to discussing TV.

If you want to explore the issue of intelligence and religious belief any further, by all means start a new thread about it.

[moroboshi]

Originally Posted by Chris

Not at all. I'm not here to defend the Catholic church. I'm not here to suggest that only religious people can be intelligent. I am here, however, to show that your claim that "lack of intelligence and belief in 'god' are directly linked" is patent nonsense..

Did you even bother to look at the Telegraph link? Clearly not, as it's all about the link between athiesm and intelligence.

Originally Posted by moroboshi

Did you even bother to look at the Telegraph link? Clearly not, as it's all about the link between athiesm and intelligence.

Of course I didn't - your link is entirely besides the point. I'm not trying to claim atheists aren't intelligent so there's no need for you to go trying to prove that they are.

Now, final time, and this time in bold: please drop it in this thread. If you want to discuss this issue, start a new one.

[sir_drinks_alot]

Will this show becomeing to the uk any time soon ?

[Stuart]

I believe Sci Fi UK are planning to show it in January.

[Tezcatlipoca]

A good third episode, IMO.

We're starting to see the Resistance slowly getting together, plus getting mentions of the Fifth Column. Nice way of dealing with Tudyk's character too.

I just hope the plan for Erica's irritating son & the sexy young Visitor isn't going to end up with another "Star Child".

[Kymmy]

For reference the 4th Show is the last till March 2010.. The reason cited for this is the winter Olympics... BUT.. It's more than likely due to the reshuffle they had earlier this year when they had a major high level staff change with executive producer Scott Peters replaced by Scott Rosenbaum, a former executive producer of NBC's Chuck.