Unstoppable migration?

[RichardCoulter]

Originally Posted by Anypermitedroute

I think we are forgetting that the vast vast majority of these people will be coming here to work and legally working so will be paying for these facilities via NI contributions like EVERYONE ELSE. You will also find that the 99% of them will thankfully never ever need to use them either.

We will also need to move on from the motion that the NHS is the best thing in the world. It's great but it ain't the best and that includes a few countries in Europe

Those coming from the EU (or are here legally from elsewhere) are entitled to the same healthcare as us regardless of any contribution.

In turn, we are able to use any of their health facilities just as a local can in any other EU country.

The problem is that in the EU countries I've visited, their healthcare system is inadequate and I've had to pay for private insurance.

Out of interest, which countries have a better system than ours, would be a lot cheaper* for me to go there!

* Because of existing illness/disabilities my holiday insurance is Sky high

The Netherlands, the Nordic countries, and French and German systems are very highly regarded.

http://www.healthpowerhouse.com/file...014_report.pdf

Where did you go where you found the healthcare systems were inadequate?

[Anypermitedroute]

And who could forget this case involving a British couple going abroad for treatment

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...r-effects.html

I given daily mail article specially

[Osem]

Originally Posted by Anypermitedroute

I think we are forgetting that the vast vast majority of these people will be coming here to work and legally working so will be paying for these facilities via NI contributions like EVERYONE ELSE. You will also find that the 99% of them will thankfully never ever need to use them either.

We will also need to move on from the motion that the NHS is the best thing in the world. It's great but it ain't the best and that includes a few countries in Europe

It's not the best but is is by far the best when it comes to easily accessible free services which are open to all whether they've paid their taxes or not and regardless of their legal status. Incidentally how do you know hoe many illegals are working in the UK when HMG clearly doesn't, these people aren't lving on air so they're either working or stealing. The UK is still one of the easiest places to live under the radar due primarily to the absence of ID cards which are widely required to access services etc. in Europe.

Some close friends of ours emigrated to France a few years ago for family reasons (he's French and she's Polish) after lving here for well over a decade. Even now they're always complaining about how hard it is to get anything done and how much paperwork/ID is required for services which are far easier to access in the UK. It's not the quality of their health service it's the complexity of it all.

As for 99% of migrant will never use the NHS? I'd love to know where that figure comes from because I think it's tosh. For a start, those who settle and have children here will inevitably use it along with a whole lot of other services.

It is a rubbish claim I've seen it in leicester myself where family from india and pakistan come for extended visits to make use of NHS services and I'm sure it happens elsewhere. I'm very aware the NHS isn't perfect especially lately but how much money and resources is it using treating people that shouldn't be here or people who happen to have serious medical conditions and "holiday" in the UK. I'm sure people in dover are over the moon about immigration and the positive force it is for the UK .

[Anypermitedroute]

where did I say I knew about illegal immigration??? They produced stats on who has come here and my entire point is if they pay in like anyone else they have as much right to use the facilities. Believe it or not the vast majority will only use when necessary and when it comes to abusing the system, start looking closer to home on a Friday night when it's full of self inflicted injuries drink related. People honestly need to look beyond migrants as the problem here , you probably find that more migrants (including those coming for EU) are working in the NHS than use it!

And my first job in life was working in the NHS as a clinical support assistant (or cleaner/food prep as its better known as) so I saw who was using it and who workiws there on a daily basis

[Osem]

Originally Posted by Anypermitedroute

where did I say I knew about illegal immigration??? They produced stats on who has come here and my entire point is if they pay in like anyone else they have as much right to use the facilities. Believe it or not the vast majority will only use when necessary and when it comes to abusing the system, start looking closer to home on a Friday night when it's full of self inflicted injuries drink related. People honestly need to look beyond migrants as the problem here , you probably find that more migrants (including those coming for EU) are working in the NHS than use it!

And my first job in life was working in the NHS as a clinical support assistant (or cleaner/food prep as its better known as) so I saw who was using it and who workiws there on a daily basis

You didn't specify anything in your post merely migrants, hence my questioning the rather vague assumptions you're making, including the 99% claim which is utter tosh.

What homemade drunken louts choose to do to subject the NHS to every weekend is indeed a big problem but is it a problem we need added to by the similarly inebriated migrant element when our NHS and other services are already stretched? Your argument seems to be that because we have plenty of our very own home produced wastes of space, that somehow makes it OK for less than honest, diligent, net contributing, inherently healthy migrants to be able to come here and do likewise. I disagree. I believe we need to tackle the problems we have in our own society without opening the door to yet more abuse from whatever proportion it is of the entire migrant load the UK is groaning under which does very significantly add to our already serious problems and actually contributes very little.

Incidentally, how much tax and NI does a migrant on anywhere near the minimum wage pay do you reckon and how much NHS medical, dental care, free contraception etc. etc. etc. does that buy in your world? If legally here they have a right to these things but is it a right which we can continue to afford? How much is the net contribution of a migrant on low wages who's entitled to child benefit, housing benefit and tax credits? About the same as an indigenous person in the same situation I'd wager but do you call them a net benefit to UK PLC too or is it just migrants who're that?

So you worked in the NHS for a while and that makes you an expert on who's doing what and who isn't. Who's nice and who isn't? Who is entitled and who isn't? I'd wager I have a great deal more personal experience than you of the NHS and know full well it employs a great many migrants some of whom will be better than others in just the same was applies to the indigenous element. I'm not suggesting that all of these people aren't necessary or should be deported, I'm arguing we need to control the amount and quality of the people we take from around the globe and ought also to be paying some attention to the adverse effects hoovering up nurses etc. from poorer nations has in those countries. The migrants who come here to work and build new lives here will themselves one day get old and require the sort of care and resources we're being told we need to import vast numbers of people to cope with. Bit of a problem in the long term that don't you think or is the 'solution' to the UK's difficult situation exponential population growth? The UK's official population growth over the last decade or so has been staggering and there are plenty more people here illegally who are either supporting themselves without paying any tax/NI, existing on charity, stealing or living on thin air. Either way I don't reckon they're a net benefit to our society or economy and I don't see how anyone can seriously argue that the UK can sustain population growth of 1,000,000 (officially) people every three years.

https://fullfact.org/immigration/imm...and-nhs-staff/

EU immigrants make up about 5% of English NHS staff and about 5% of the English population, according to the best available data. Across the UK, EU immigrants make up 10% of registered doctors and 4% of registered nurses. Immigrants from outside the EU make up larger proportions. Restrictions on non-EU immigrants have affected NHS recruitment, suggesting that the same could happen if there were limits on EU immigration. However, these restrictions did not trigger a process of existing healthcare workers fleeing the UK

https://fullfact.org/immigration/eu-migration-and-uk/

So with over 150,000 more EU migrants alone coming to Britain than leave every year and a total population of over 3,000,000 migrants who're citizens of another EU country, you assert that more of them work in the NHS than use it? Really?...

55,000 out of the 1.2 million staff in the English NHS are citizens of other EU countries, according to the English Health Service’s Electronic Staff Record. This includes doctors; nurses; other professionals like paramedics and pharmacists; support workers providing care; and administrative staff.

Immigration on the scale of recent times has created huge problems that are not offset by their contribution but to talk about immigration in just economic terms is simplistic in the extreme. Whole communities have had their balance destroyed and the strain on services in some areas is horrendous it's ok for people in non affected or low impacted areas to talk about the benefits of immigration but we have a lot of british citizens dealing with the harsh realities of it. Add in the culture of fear within state organisations to say anything but positive things in relation to immigration and it's impact and we have a major problem that is still not being addressed.

I do not want mass deportation or anything like that and for those immigrants who have come here and work we should be open and welcoming but the fact is we have no idea on the real numbers and no clue on dealing with the consequences.

[Taf]

I know several EU migrants that work for the NHS. All are cleaners or other menial jobs. Ditto those who do not work for the NHS.

All have large families with several children, most born in this country.

All receive Housing Benefit, Council Tax Benefit and Working Families Tax Credits. Plus free healthcare and education. They know the system so work the minimum hours possible for the maximum benefits.

Most send large sums of money back to their home countries instead of spending it here.

Ditto all above for many British families, but they seem to spend their money here in the UK.

[nomadking]

Originally Posted by Anypermitedroute

I think we are forgetting that the vast vast majority of these people will be coming here to work and legally working so will be paying for these facilities via NI contributions like EVERYONE ELSE. You will also find that the 99% of them will thankfully never ever need to use them either.

We will also need to move on from the motion that the NHS is the best thing in the world. It's great but it ain't the best and that includes a few countries in Europe

They will be taking away jobs from tose already here and thereby leving them on benefits. An overall NEGATIVE impact. A sort of robbing Peter to pay Paul.

[Osem]

Yes, doing all the jobs poorly paid, dirty jobs the lazy Brits don't want whilst paying significant amounts of tax, sending money back home, hardly using our various health/welfare services and not claiming benefits (working or otherwise) really is going some. It's all so very positive that I'm surprised we don't just solve all our woes and create a modern Utopia by opening the gates entirely..

Originally Posted by Osem

So with over 150,000 more EU migrants alone coming to Britain than leave every year and a total population of over 3,000,000 migrants who're citizens of another EU country, you assert that more of them work in the NHS than use it? Really?...

Not really wanting to comment on that stat but one thing to keep to mind when trying to quantify these things is that the demographics may mean EU migrants use it less. If they're disproportionately skewed towards the young then we're talking about a group in which the majority may never have set foot inside a hospital or surgery. The biggest part of the NHS is care for the elderly and diabetics, the load isn't equal though society. So the demographics matter.

I don't know about the claim more migrants work in the NHS than use it but there could easily be an argument that they benefit it more than they take from it.

As an example the link you quoted shows EU migrants are more likely to be doctors than the native population. That's the kind of migration I would hope of us would want, especially since we need more doctors.

---------- Post added at 15:15 ---------- Previous post was at 15:10 ----------

Originally Posted by Taf

I know several EU migrants that work for the NHS. All are cleaners or other menial jobs. Ditto those who do not work for the NHS.

Ok but it seems a lot of them are Doctors.

[Anypermitedroute]

Originally Posted by Damien

Not really wanting to comment on that stat but one thing to keep to mind when trying to quantify these things is that the demographics may mean EU migrants use it less. If they're disproportionately skewed towards the young then we're talking about a group in which the majority may never have set foot inside a hospital or surgery. The biggest part of the NHS is care for the elderly and diabetics, the load isn't equal though society. So the demographics matter.

I don't know about the claim more migrants work in the NHS than use it but there could easily be an argument that they benefit it more than they take from it.

As an example the link you quoted shows EU migrants are more likely to be doctors than the native population. That's the kind of migration I would hope of us would want, especially since we need more doctors.

---------- Post added at 15:15 ---------- Previous post was at 15:10 ----------



Ok but it seems a lot of them are Doctors.

Damien has put this over better than I have, I am happy to retract the 99% point I poorly came over with this

Originally Posted by nomadking

They will be taking away jobs from tose already here and thereby leving them on benefits. An overall NEGATIVE impact. A sort of robbing Peter to pay Paul.

And plenty more jobs available today, not a problem, a quick search on shows there is many spaces with in our social system to be filled

[Osem]

I don't know anyone who has a problem with managed migration to attract people with something to offer and skills we need. We don't have that, however, we have unmanaged migration in which anyone from the EU can come here pretty much regardless of what they have to offer. Whichever way you look at that it's not good. It adds significantly to the population and the burden thereof whilst undercutting those in the lower paid jobs which are in most competition. That might just be why BigCorp tends to be in favour of it and was largely anti-Brexit.

Whilst we have fully able, unemployed people of our own there is no sound reason why we should be filling low skilled and manual jobs with migrants. When UK PLC is 'suffering' from full employment that won't be the case but don't hold your breath waiting for that day because there are far too many powerful people who quite like getting richer on the back of mass migration and aren't the ones bearing the brunt of it.

Originally Posted by Osem

I don't know anyone who has a problem with managed migration to attract people with something to offer and skills we need. We don't have that, however, we have unmanaged migration in which anyone from the EU can come here pretty much regardless of what they have to offer. Whichever way you look at that it's not good. It adds significantly to the population and the burden thereof whilst undercutting those in the lower paid jobs which are in most competition. That might just be why BigCorp tends to be in favour of it and was largely anti-Brexit.

What we don't have though is crystal clear idea of what the impact is. The first Full Fact link you provided did state that if there is an impact then it's one which is dwarfed by other factors.

It's similar to that Rowntree report that was linked here last week about the impact of migration on wages which did find there was an impact but one which was considerably smaller than the impact felt by even minor changes to the growth or recession of the wider economy.

If we say there is a negative impact on the NHS due to EU migration, which isn't entirely clear, then it's one which would be dwarfed by the impact oftype 2 diabetes for example.

We focus a lot of immigration but it may be that the focus on it is disproportionate to the impact it actually has relative to other issues.

However it may also be the case that looking at this in a nationwide context and via statistics overlooks the impact in specific communities. It may well be that in terms of the service has a whole immigration is fine but that doesn't help a (hypothetical) hospital in Bradford which is under strain. In that case I would say we've failed to properly manage the immigration we have and the Government doesn't react fast enough to localised problems such as that.