Eurozone will collapse...

[gba93]

Originally Posted by Damien

The difference now is that France are willingly working with Germany and are key allies, that this isn't a occupation, and that this isn't Nazi Germany.

Please note I referred to collaboration not occupation - Germany has the economic might, France doesn't (which is not dis-similar to Germany having the military might and France not) so it is not unreasonable to assume that France has in all likelihood allied itself to (or collaborated with) Germany in order to pursue the European project of unity (which is what Napoleon and Hitler strived for but in a different way) - however they both failed as will this attempt to bully the citizens of smaller European nations into submission but like all wars it will take some time and there will be casulties - as always history will be the judge (not me, not you)

[Horace]

Germany is actually trying to help the other countries in Europe, it would do quite well on its' own, indeed it would probably be an even larger economic powerhouse if it wasn't being strangled by commitments to the EC. If I was a German I'd frankly be very annoyed about my goverment helping to prop up incompetent governments in Italy, Greece, Spain, Ireland and Portugal. To compare Merkel with Hitler is about as realistic as comparing Churchill to Cameron or a bulldog to a poodle if you will.

[Osem]

Clearly we're not dealing with Nazis or anything like them but there must be some doubt about how the Germans will react and the Franco-German 'alliance' develop if they don't get what they want (and what they may sincerely believe is right for Europe) for whatever reason. They're convinced it's their way or no way after all and the French could well be in for some tougher times as their spending and debt levels come under greater scrutiny....

The extent to which there is or isn't a German 'occupation' or control depend on which and how many strings they wind up pulling doesn't it. After what's gone on in S. Europe, I can't see those who're paying the bill not to want to call all the important shots. If this does ultimately boil down to a cosy Franco-German deal, then I can see there being an awful lot of unhappy people in Italy, Spain, Portugal, etc. when it becomes apparent to them that some in Europe are a lot more equal than others.

[gba93]

Originally Posted by Osem

Clearly we're not dealing with Nazis or anything like them but there must be some doubt about how the Germans will react and the Franco-German 'alliance' develop if they don't get what they want (and what they may sincerely believe is right for Europe) for whatever reason. They're convinced it's their way or no way after all.....

The extent to which there is or isn't a German 'occupation' or control depend on which and how many strings they wind up pulling doesn't it. After what's gone on in S. Europe, I can't see those who're paying the bill not to want to call all the important shots. If this does ultimately boil down to a cosy Franco-German deal, then I can see there being an awful lot of unhappy people in Italy, Spain, Portugal, etc. when it becomes apparent that some in Europe are a lot more equal than others.

[Horace]

Analogy : through bad financial decisions, you're completely broke, lost your job and about to lose your house, a kind relative offers to pay your mortgage and in return they manage your budget to allow you to get back on your feet again. Would you really turn that down and instead become homeless?

[Osem]

There's a great deal of difference between a kind relative, a financial backer who wants to make a quick buck or a political opportunist seeking wider control of your national affairs forever isn't there. In time we'll see which the Germans turn out to be and how they react if/when those economies who've been 'bailed out' recover and decide they want control over their own affairs again.

Originally Posted by gba93

Please note I referred to collaboration not occupation - Germany has the economic might, France doesn't (which is not dis-similar to Germany having the military might and France not) so it is not unreasonable to assume that France has in all likelihood allied itself to (or collaborated with) Germany in order to pursue the European project of unity (which is what Napoleon and Hitler strived for but in a different way) - however they both failed as will this attempt to bully the citizens of smaller European nations into submission but like all wars it will take some time and there will be casulties - as always history will be the judge (not me, not you)

France collaborated because they were defeated militarily and Germany took over half their country. Germany is not invading France nor has it got France over a barrel, they need France to help influence member states. This seems to be a mutually beneficial relationship for them.

Germany need the Euro to survive. This is why they are so involved. Their population isn't too keen on bailing out member states who could not manage their budgets and the German government would likely rather not bother if it were not for their own self-interest in keeping the Euro alive.

Either way we cannot keep using Nazi Germany as a window to the motivations of the German people. It's utterly insane. Are some in this country really unable to envision Europe in a context other than WW2?

"Some people" in this country.....

I lived in Berlin for three years (as a member of the Armed Forces), and having met a lot of Germans then and since, they hate their country's past deeds more than we do, imho.

Originally Posted by Hugh

"Some people" in this country.....

Quite right, Corrected. Sorry.

[nomadking]

Originally Posted by Damien

France collaborated because they were defeated militarily and Germany took over half their country. Germany is not invading France nor has it got France over a barrel, they need France to help influence member states. This seems to be a mutually beneficial relationship for them.

Germany need the Euro to survive. This is why they are so involved. Their population isn't too keen on bailing out member states who could not manage their budgets and the German government would likely rather not bother if it were not for their own self-interest in keeping the Euro alive.

Either way we cannot keep using Nazi Germany as a window to the motivations of the German people. It's utterly insane. Are some in this country really unable to envision Europe in a context other than WW2?

How about those who always claim the the EU has, and will prevent war? That is frequently given as a reason to stay in the EU.

Germany has lumbered itself with employment and other laws that potentially make it uncompetitive. The best way it has to cope with that is to burden as many other countries as possible with those same regulations. How many times does a law start off in Germany, only to go on and be an EU directive which everybody has to stick to. How many times have they been stuck with a directive that they don't want, that started elsewhere(eg Britain)?

[gba93]

It's nice to think that Germany is supporting all the small, poor countries out of the kindness of their hearts, donating all their hard earned euros to bail out the Greeks, Spanisn, etc; totally committed to the european ideal ..... so why then are they printing Deutschmarks again ?

[chris9991]

Originally Posted by Ignitionnet

Tad late for people like us to be responsible for the decline of Europe to be honest.

Do you know the source of this chart. It was my understanding that EU15 term referred to EU members up to Sweden who joined in 1995. If that is the case, then the EU15 back in the 1970s and 1980s would have included states such as East Germany and Austria which suffered Communist problems. Spain in the 1970s had Franco problems too. I don't think either of the regimes were conducive to economic growth.

But, I could be proven wrong

Originally Posted by gba93

It's nice to think that Germany is supporting all the small, poor countries out of the kindness of their hearts, donating all their hard earned euros to bail out the Greeks, Spanisn, etc; totally committed to the european ideal ..... so why then are they printing Deutschmarks again ?

I didn't say they were doing it out of the kindness of their hearts. In fact if you read my post, it's the one you quoted, I quite clearly speculate into their motivation:

Germany need the Euro to survive. This is why they are so involved. Their population isn't too keen on bailing out member states who could not manage their budgets and the German government would likely rather not bother if it were not for their own self-interest in keeping the Euro alive.

They are acting out of self-interest. This is what countries do when they engage in foreign diplomacy and Germany has a stronger hand than a lot of the EU countries, but that isn't sinister. All countries have their own interests at heart and attempt to do a deal.

[Ignitionnet]

Originally Posted by chris9991

Do you know the source of this chart. It was my understanding that EU15 term referred to EU members up to Sweden who joined in 1995. If that is the case, then the EU15 back in the 1970s and 1980s would have included states such as East Germany and Austria which suffered Communist problems. Spain in the 1970s had Franco problems too. I don't think either of the regimes were conducive to economic growth.

But, I could be proven wrong

The EU15 comprised the following 15 countries: Austria, Belgium, Denmark, Finland, France, Germany, Greece, Ireland, Italy, Luxembourg, Netherlands, Portugal, Spain, Sweden, United Kingdom.

Given they were under communist rule for part of this period you'd have expected economic growth to improve as they were liberalised, surely?

This is the point, despite being rid of communism and the ever closer political unions the EU-15 continue to fail to keep pace with the rest of the world.

---------- Post added at 22:17 ---------- Previous post was at 22:16 ----------

Originally Posted by gba93

It's nice to think that Germany is supporting all the small, poor countries out of the kindness of their hearts, donating all their hard earned euros to bail out the Greeks, Spanisn, etc; totally committed to the european ideal ..... so why then are they printing Deutschmarks again ?

Germany are in the Euro because it keeps their exports cheap. If they ever decide that the costs and benefits don't work for them they'll be gone.

[Osem]

Originally Posted by Damien

They are acting out of self-interest. This is what countries do when they engage in foreign diplomacy and Germany has a stronger hand than a lot of the EU countries, but that isn't sinister. All countries have their own interests at heart and attempt to do a deal.

Which is why the likes of the Germans and French criticising the UK for doing just that is hard to swallow. We're all playing the same game and looking after number one is what matters most to us all. It seems they expected us to help protect their interests and are rather indignant that we chose not to. They'd have done exactly the same in our shoes.