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8 Dead and 48 Injured in London Bridge Terror Attack
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Old 04-06-2017, 22:27   #61
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Re: 7 Dead and 48 Injured in London Bridge Terror Attack

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Originally Posted by RizzyKing View Post
While the attackers maybe home grown the start of the radicalisation process is usually started by visiting imans and elders the old brigade happy to send the young off to die for their cause. Also a lot of the technical attack information and training process comes from visitors, the joke is most of the time we know the wrong ones and let them in anyway because it's become our default response to do nothing that might offend muslims. It's time for us in the UK to do more then talk about our values and the worth of society and country and start showing anyone that wants to come here that they have to deserve a place in our society and that they must adapt and integrate into our society and earn the many benefits of life in the UK.

For too long we have attached little practical value to what we have here and that's made it easier for the cowards to come here.
Aren't they mostly radicalised via the internet? It would be reasonably easy to track suspects if they all went to a specific mosque.
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Old 04-06-2017, 22:29   #62
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Re: 7 Dead and 48 Injured in London Bridge Terror Attack

After a certain point it can be done online but most of the time it starts in the mosques by charismatic figures and completes online in some cases but not all mosques are the breeding ground.
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Old 04-06-2017, 22:57   #63
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Re: 7 Dead and 48 Injured in London Bridge Terror Attack

from the concert in Manchester...

https://streamable.com/w3pxr
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Old 04-06-2017, 23:05   #64
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Re: 7 Dead and 48 Injured in London Bridge Terror Attack

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Originally Posted by ianch99 View Post
In like of these recent evenst, this looks very disturbing:

'Sensitive' UK terror funding inquiry may never be published

This is where we need the focus: stop the Saudi funding on UK mosques so we stop them spreading their pernicious and medieval world view ..
I totally agree. It may cause diplomatic and business problems but that's a small price to pay compared to those who paid with their lives in London and Manchester.
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Old 05-06-2017, 00:10   #65
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Re: 7 Dead and 48 Injured in London Bridge Terror Attack

we really need to stop selling arms to Saudi Arabia for a start

Last edited by Dave42; 05-06-2017 at 00:15.
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Old 05-06-2017, 00:33   #66
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Re: 7 Dead and 48 Injured in London Bridge Terror Attack

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Originally Posted by Damien View Post
Aren't they mostly radicalised via the internet? It would be reasonably easy to track suspects if they all went to a specific mosque.
Why do you think this? There have been numerous groups and hate preachers operating in this country in the recent past.

Do you suppose they have all disappeared? If there are Mosques funded by Wahhabi monies then these do present a real & present danger.

List of UK Mosques:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...United_Kingdom

Note the number of Deobandi influenced:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deobandi

Quote:
According to a 2007 investigation by The Times, about 600 of Britain's nearly 1,500 mosques were under the control of "a hardline sect", whose leading preacher loathed Western values, called on Muslims to “shed blood” for Allah and preached contempt for Jews, Christians and Hindus. The same investigative report further said that 17 of the country's 26 Islamic seminaries follow the ultra-conservative Deobandi teachings which had given birth to the Taliban. According to Times almost 80% of all domestically trained Ulema were being trained in these hardline seminaries.[17]

In 2014 it was reported that 45 per cent of Britain’s mosques and nearly all the UK-based training of Islamic scholars are controlled by the Deobandi, the largest single Islamic group.
A worrying trend ...
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Old 05-06-2017, 00:44   #67
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Re: 7 Dead and 48 Injured in London Bridge Terror Attack

The internet is a part of it but to pretend it's the whole is just continuing the very mindset that's got us where we are and those in power have to start accepting that our traditional view of places of worship is not applicable to all mosques. While the majority of Muslims don't take part in violent acts a growing number have more sympathy with those that do then they have with the victims of these attacks and that's no longer acceptable or at least it shouldn't be. Islam in it's current form is not compatible with western society and there is absolutely no chance of the faith altering or evolving to fit into western society like most other religions have.

This is dodgy ground for me as an atheist and I'd be far more comfortable if this was politically motivated but it isn't the violence and the faith are completely intertwined and I'm getting tired of seeing innocent civilians here and on mainland europe dead on pavements in the name of religion.
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Old 05-06-2017, 05:53   #68
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Re: 7 Dead and 48 Injured in London Bridge Terror Attack

Shots fired in Dagenham now

---------- Post added at 04:53 ---------- Previous post was at 04:51 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by RizzyKing View Post
After a certain point it can be done online but most of the time it starts in the mosques by charismatic figures and completes online in some cases but not all mosques are the breeding ground.
Prisons are the breeding ground imo, it'll take cash to sort it and we have shown already we're not prepared to spend it

Those shots might have been the sound of doors being kicked in, apparently...
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Last edited by TheDaddy; 05-06-2017 at 06:46.
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Old 05-06-2017, 08:15   #69
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Re: 7 Dead and 48 Injured in London Bridge Terror Attack

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Originally Posted by Dave42 View Post
we really need to stop selling arms to Saudi Arabia for a start
Do you mean Qatar?
Quote:
Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Bahrain and the United Arab Emirates have cut diplomatic ties with Qatar, accusing it of destabilising the region.
The countries say Qatar is supporting terrorist groups including the Muslim Brotherhood.
...

The Saudi-led Arab coalition fighting Yemen's Houthi rebels also expelled Qatar from its alliance because of Doha's "practices that strengthen terrorism" and its support to groups "including al-Qaeda and Daesh [also known as the so-called Islamic State], as well as dealing with the rebel militias", according to SPA.
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Old 05-06-2017, 08:23   #70
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Re: 7 Dead and 48 Injured in London Bridge Terror Attack

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Originally Posted by nomadking View Post
Do you mean Qatar?
Dave's correct - Saudi Arabia, see ianch99's post re the Saudi-funded Deobandi mosques.
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Old 05-06-2017, 11:27   #71
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Re: 7 Dead and 48 Injured in London Bridge Terror Attack

Just reading some of the replies here seems to indicate that the terror tactics are working.

(I want to try to keep this fairly neutral as it can apply to any group.)

We should never give up our freedoms that have been fought for and over for so long. Neither should we join those hate filled people in their hate. The more we try to "clamp down" the more ammunition we give to them on how our country suppresses their "rights" and "freedoms" and how "ordinary people" need to rise up and help.

And then how do you know that "your group" won't get "targetted" because of some similarity makes you "the same" and "just in case".

I've mentioned before that a Muslim will see any attack against another Muslim by non-Muslims as an attack on all Muslims and will put aside many differences to join in defending/attacking. So it may not be as easy as simply identifying radical teachers, it is something more central to the culture than that.

From a Christian point of view we need to "love our enemies". Now that is not to say we do not punish those guilty of crime but we leave that to the courts. At an individual level though we don't need to take on that burden of hate and revenge.
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Old 05-06-2017, 12:57   #72
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Re: 7 Dead and 48 Injured in London Bridge Terror Attack

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Originally Posted by tweetiepooh View Post
Just reading some of the replies here seems to indicate that the terror tactics are working.

(I want to try to keep this fairly neutral as it can apply to any group.)

We should never give up our freedoms that have been fought for and over for so long. Neither should we join those hate filled people in their hate. The more we try to "clamp down" the more ammunition we give to them on how our country suppresses their "rights" and "freedoms" and how "ordinary people" need to rise up and help.

And then how do you know that "your group" won't get "targetted" because of some similarity makes you "the same" and "just in case".

I've mentioned before that a Muslim will see any attack against another Muslim by non-Muslims as an attack on all Muslims and will put aside many differences to join in defending/attacking. So it may not be as easy as simply identifying radical teachers, it is something more central to the culture than that.

From a Christian point of view we need to "love our enemies". Now that is not to say we do not punish those guilty of crime but we leave that to the courts. At an individual level though we don't need to take on that burden of hate and revenge.
I think that you need to clarify what you specifically mean by "clamp down" and "attack". Your post is too ambiguous to apply to any specific context.

If you mean "clamp down" is to deny citizens the ability to enjoy the hard won freedoms of this pluralist society that you are 100% correct. However, if you mean the Government should not attempt to prevent Immans, Preachers, Activists, etc. whose goal is to pervert the minds of the young & impressionable then I would disagree with you.

There is a fine but important line to be drawn between reactions that punish the Muslim community as a whole where the vast majority abhor this behaviour and those actions that are targeted at the radicals.

We need total clarity on who the Government is targeting. This message should be writ large and clear in the media and leaders of the Muslim community should be active participants and more importantly should be seen to be active participants.
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Old 05-06-2017, 14:50   #73
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Re: 7 Dead and 48 Injured in London Bridge Terror Attack

Quote:
Originally Posted by ianch99 View Post
According to a 2007 investigation by The Times, about 600 of Britain's nearly 1,500 mosques were under the control of "a hardline sect", whose leading preacher loathed Western values, called on Muslims to “shed blood” for Allah and preached contempt for Jews, Christians and Hindus. The same investigative report further said that 17 of the country's 26 Islamic seminaries follow the ultra-conservative Deobandi teachings which had given birth to the Taliban. According to Times almost 80% of all domestically trained Ulema were being trained in these hardline seminaries.[17]

In 2014 it was reported that 45 per cent of Britain’s mosques and nearly all the UK-based training of Islamic scholars are controlled by the Deobandi, the largest single Islamic group.
A worrying trend ...
Indeed. What does that say about the 45% of British based Muslims who are attending those mosques? We are constantly told that radical muslims are 'a tiny minority' of the total. How does that mesh with the information above?

---------- Post added at 13:50 ---------- Previous post was at 13:46 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by tweetiepooh View Post
I've mentioned before that a Muslim will see any attack against another Muslim by non-Muslims as an attack on all Muslims and will put aside many differences to join in defending/attacking.
Suddenly, Trumps approach doesn't seem all that bad.....
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Old 05-06-2017, 15:15   #74
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Re: 7 Dead and 48 Injured in London Bridge Terror Attack

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Originally Posted by ianch99 View Post
If you mean "clamp down" is to deny citizens the ability to enjoy the hard won freedoms of this pluralist society that you are 100% correct. However, if you mean the Government should not attempt to prevent Immans, Preachers, Activists, etc. whose goal is to pervert the minds of the young & impressionable then I would disagree with you.
I believe it's clear from the context of his post he means the former. We obviously need to clamp down on radicalisation and extremism but we should perverse our own freedoms whilst doing so, i.e I don't think we should ban end-to-end encryption or force companies to build a 'back door' in.

He is certainly right we should not give the terrorists the war they want. They broadly want to provoke a clash of civilizations and turn this into the West vs them. There are of course some Britain First types who want such a war as well.

I'm not sure what the answer is ultimately but for all the tough talk from some I don't think I am alone in that. It's also a problem elsewhere. After all there have been far-right attacks that seem to have, in part, been inspired from the Internet as well.
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Old 05-06-2017, 16:12   #75
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Re: 7 Dead and 48 Injured in London Bridge Terror Attack

There are those on both sides who would love this to turn into a wider war and that's the last thing i want to see i do not want to trade civilian dead on our streets for military deaths overseas or civilian dead in the middle east. We are to blame a bit Blair's actions heightened tensions and undoubtedly helped in recruitment but that's not an excuse or even a reason to attack as they are. This is a new form of hostilities where our traditional values in the west are being used against us to aid those **** that would continue attacking and we have to look at how we can adapt and if needed change that in relation to this minority of violent attackers.

Yes it is a minority commiting these attacks but they have broader support within the islamic communities and that support has grown despite all efforts to address that. There is no magic bullet here no single measure that's going to resolve this and we need to work with the islamic community but they need to realise they cannot continue as they have previously. It's no longer acceptable that all the effort for change is on our side there needs to be change within islam in the west and they need to do more then just go in front of cameras after an attack with condemnation that lasts only as long as the camera is on and have a different stance when they go back to their mosque.
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