Southern rail strike talks to be held on second day of commuter misery

[nomadking]

Originally Posted by martyh

There will be job losses ,the guards are losing their jobs to start with ,they will be given new titles and duties along with new contracts and most likely a lesser pay scale .If you think that introducing DOO trains doesn't involve cutting jobs then you are wrong ,the whole idea of DOO trains is to cut costs by cutting manpower

And your evidence is?

But he also said: "Govia Thameslink Railway is implementing these changes that will modernise services and provide better journeys, without any job losses, and it is disappointing that union bosses continue to overlook the impact they are having on passengers."

Southern has guaranteed that no-one will lose their job, or take a pay cut. The second person will now be free to help passengers, they say.

"The role of the conductor is evolving into the role of the on board supervisor and trains that have a conductor today, will have an on board supervisor rostered on them going forward."
He claimed there will actually be more people on board than there are currently and the on board supervisors will all be safety and security trained.

But Southern guarantees it'll keep two people on each service, they just won't have the same "safety-critical" role. Southern is only able to keep this promise for the length of its franchise, which runs out in 2021.

Originally Posted by nomadking

And your evidence is?

because Southerns franchise will be up and any new operator will introduce driver only trains as per the franchise agreements ,the unions are taking now because of future job losses which are inevitable,they are simply using H&S as an excuse ,it really isn't rocket science you know

[nomadking]

Originally Posted by martyh

because Southerns franchise will be up and any new operator will introduce driver only trains as per the franchise agreements ,the unions are taking now because of future job losses which are inevitable,they are simply using H&S as an excuse ,it really isn't rocket science you know

Anything that could happen, won't until MORE THAN 4 YEARS TIME. The law on "Transfer of Undertakings (Protection of Employment) Regulations 1981" would also limit things. Any Franchise agreement would only stipulate what the Franchisee COULD do, not MUST. If they're not needed why should they be employed?

Originally Posted by nomadking

Anything that could happen, won't until MORE THAN 4 YEARS TIME. The law on "Transfer of Undertakings (Protection of Employment) Regulations 1981" would also limit things. Any Franchise agreement would only stipulate what the Franchisee COULD do, not MUST. If they're not needed why should they be employed?

It's the unions reason for being to protect workers jobs ,it doesn't matter if the losses are tomorrow or 4 years time ,the unions are against DOO trains on principle and have every right to fight against them .I'm sure that if you where a guard you be very worried by now for your job

[heero_yuy]

IIRC weren't the unions fiercely opposed to not having a fireman in the cab of a diesel engine as well as a driver?

Progress makes many jobs redundant. Drawing office anybody? They simply don't exist anymore.

[nomadking]

Originally Posted by martyh

It's the unions reason for being to protect workers jobs ,it doesn't matter if the losses are tomorrow or 4 years time ,the unions are against DOO trains on principle and have every right to fight against them .I'm sure that if you where a guard you be very worried by now for your job

Their argument therefore HAS NOTHING TO WITH THEIR CURRENT EMPLOYERS.

Originally Posted by nomadking

Their argument therefore HAS NOTHING TO WITH THEIR CURRENT EMPLOYERS.

Their argument has nothing to do with H&S either and you can shout as much as you like but it won't change the fact that the union has a duty to protect their workers rights and jobs.

[nomadking]

Originally Posted by martyh

Their argument has nothing to do with H&S either and you can shout as much as you like but it won't change the fact that the union has a duty to protect their workers rights and jobs.

Minor flaw in your argument, their rights and jobs are NOT at risk, and NOT with their current employer. The current employer can do absolutely nothing about what MIGHT happen in FOUR YEARS TIME.

Originally Posted by nomadking

Minor flaw in your argument, their rights and jobs are NOT at risk, and NOT with their current employer. The current employer can do absolutely nothing about what MIGHT happen in FOUR YEARS TIME.

Your completely missing the point ,the current employer has sod all to do with anything .The unions are objecting to DOO trains in general and using H&S as a reason .The guards job is going to be made redundant to cut costs ,whether that is now or in 4 yrs time is irrelevant .From the unions perspective it is far better to start the fight now than in 2020

[OLD BOY]

Originally Posted by martyh

Your completely missing the point ,the current employer has sod all to do with anything .The unions are objecting to DOO trains in general and using H&S as a reason .The guards job is going to be made redundant to cut costs ,whether that is now or in 4 yrs time is irrelevant .From the unions perspective it is far better to start the fight now than in 2020

If everyone went on strike because of what might happen in the future, no-one would work at all.

Jobs come and go and no-one has a job for life. If it was left to people with these arguments running the country, we would not make any progress at all.

Some people just thrive on disruption and making the lives of decent hard working people more difficult.

[Stuart]

Originally Posted by Arthurgray50@blu

Old Boy.
Sorry my friend you are totally wrong.
If it is nothing to do with the Government, then why is Chris Grayling involved. He is the biggest pain in the arse going.

The Government should strip both companies of the franchise. The customers are being treated disgracefully. And next year prises will rise. And they are NOT stupid as the companies know that passengers will pay it.

Grayling should get the Unions round the table today, and get this strike called off.

In general, I actually agree with you. Someone needs to he held accountable for this, and to take responsibility for this. At the moment, the Unions are unlikely to be massively inconvenienced if this strike goes on. The railway company are not going to be massively inconvenienced if the strike goes on. The only people losing out are the commuters (who, despite what the government say, seem to have little or no say in how the railways are run) and the taxpayer (who will pay the compensation). The government are, of course, saying it's not our problem and offering the taxpayer's money to their friends, the railway companies.

Last time the trains in the South East got this bad, the operator (Connex) was fired. Now, our government is seemingly doing the opposite, having said that TFL will not be allowed to take the Metro routes. They are too busy rewarding the rail companies for buggering things up to punish them.

This Country should look at China - l believe. There railways are conducted by computer, they run on time, are clean. And if they break down. They are taken out of service and replaced straight away by another train. So the service is NOT effected.

This strike is NOT over money. Its over safety.

The ironic thing is you stating this strike is not over money, it's over safety immediately after citing China as a shining example of an efficiently run, safe, railway. For one thing, if the Chinese railway is as computerised as you say, it is unlikely to have guards, and may not have drivers. For another, the Chinese safety regulations are so bad, it is quite a regular occurance that people are killed in their major building projects. Their lack of safety regulations, and lack of rules about worker's rights are what enables them to sell stuff so cheaply.

If you check. Two years ago Boris Johnson wanted TFL to run trains on lines so that EACH station would have a train in it.
The Unions stopped this on the grounds of safety.

In Central London, I suspect you'd find that the trains run at pretty much this frequency now.

The Underground and Upper ground trains are run on very old tracks. And the tunnels are Victorian. So you MUST have a second official on trains.

No, you don't. The law requires that any train that runs underground (this also applies on the DLR, most of which is less than 30 years old, and all of which is less than 40 years old) has at least one member of staff aboard to help with evacuations in tunnels. Which actually does have some logic to it, as if the train is evacuated in a tunnel, the passengers are going to be walking along, in the dark, a few centimetres away from a rail carrying at least 750Kv so really should have someone who is trained with them.

[heero_yuy]

Originally Posted by Stuart

No, you don't. The law requires that any train that runs underground (this also applies on the DLR, most of which is less than 30 years old, and all of which is less than 40 years old) has at least one member of staff aboard to help with evacuations in tunnels. Which actually does have some logic to it, as if the train is evacuated in a tunnel, the passengers are going to be walking along, in the dark, a few centimetres away from a rail carrying at least 750Kv so really should have someone who is trained with them.

Actually two rails one at +330V DC and the other at -330V DC. Still electric chair power though.

FYI the rails are "floating" so a short from one to ground (Cast Iron Tunnel linings) does not stop the system from running trains in that section.

[Arthurgray50@blu]

Point about the Chines railway system being run by computer. I watched a great doc on this.

Everything is controlled by a central control system - which is manned, by several people.
The trains RUN ON TIME, ARE CLEAN and its not expensive

Our trains do not run n time, some are dirty. And its very expensive to travel.

Several years ago Stupid Boris wanted to run a train in EACH station, which is highly dangerous. The Unions put a stop to that.

The Unions are there for a reason to protect the workforce. That's why l pay Union fees.

When a company takes over a contract. The Employees go to that new company. As part of the employment law. However, that company can change a certain department. As part of 'there' streamlining the company' and l should know that. With the job l work for. It happened there.

So this crap about Gova, saying there will be NO job losses. is rubbish

[heero_yuy]

Oh dear, here we go again:

COMMUTERS are being braced for fresh train strikes after talks between the Southern and the RMT collapsed without agreement.

The groups had met for the first time today since a deal was struck with drivers’ union Aslef.

The three-hour talks had been focused on the long-running dispute over the role of conductors.

But they failed to come to an agreement and there are no plans to resume discussions tomorrow.

Southern’s parent firm Govia Thameslink (GTR) said it had hoped to end the 10-month row over guards’ roles on trains but were “saddened” talks had ended.

Linky

[denphone]

Originally Posted by heero_yuy

Oh dear, here we go again:



Linky

Sadly the current rail system as it stands is totally unfit for purpose and l can only see it getting worse instead of improving.