Unstoppable migration?

[Osem]

Rapid deportation would be a very good thing. We've been trying and all too often failing to do it for years...

Now Merkel's Germany's on the receiving end of this sort of thing it'll be interesting to see how much more efficient they can be at getting shot of the undesirable element and whether or not they'll pay as much heed to the human rights act as we seem to when trying to get shot of those who've not only often come here illegally but have rewarded the generosity of their hosts with yet more illegality.

Of course, if Merkel can't get rid of all the undesirables and they remain in Germany or don't just disappear when they get wind of their impending fate, who's to say they won't be turning up to pastures new here in the not too distant future? One thing's for sure, given the effort they've made to get to their chosen destinations, few of these people are going to be removed voluntarily and the more of them there are who resist and delay the process, the harder it will be to deal with them.

Maybe Merkel should have thought about all that eh?...

[nomadking]

Even ones that come here that are well behaved, will inevitably go on to have children that will misbehave, join terrorists groups etc.

If the "Asian" sex gangs was truly about sexual frustration, why did they treat the girls that way? Couldn't they just arrange a network of consenting adult female prostitutes?

It is simply that there are too many other Muslims around, ready to assist them that creates the problems. In smaller numbers the things couldn't and wouldn't happen.

[Osem]

People on Arabic-language social media have voiced dismay and anger at the sexual violence against women in Cologne and other German cities on New Year's Eve.

Indications that many of the attackers were North African or Arab in appearance prompt soul-searching, with some alluding to the perception that sexual violence against women is widespread in North Africa and the Middle East.

Many express concern about the possible impact the incidents could have on Germany's perception of migrants and refugees from the regions.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-35251167

Seems to me they're saying what the authorities have all too often been in denial of.

[roughbeast]

Originally Posted by nomadking

Even ones that come here that are well behaved, will inevitably go on to have children that will misbehave, join terrorists groups etc.

If the "Asian" sex gangs was truly about sexual frustration, why did they treat the girls that way? Couldn't they just arrange a network of consenting adult female prostitutes?

It is simply that there are too many other Muslims around, ready to assist them that creates the problems. In smaller numbers the things couldn't and wouldn't happen.

Point One: Ignoring, of course, the >95% who will have children that will make a valuable contribution to society.

Point Two: It is all about opportunity, including resources. Hookers, even over-weight MILFS, cost money these guys haven't got. Young girls on the street are much more desirable, (After all that is what western porn shows them) , and they appear more accessible.

Point Three: There are even more non-Muslims about, with their own criminal networks. Your point is? The issue is the current psyche of some Muslim men and the fact that some have lost their moral certainties and have the opportunity.

[Osem]

Of course the cultural differences being alluded to here ought to have been considered by those who decided that they'd simply open the floodgates to all and sundry without a thought about how to deal with the masses. As it is, there's a growing number of people* within the EU who, left to their own devices, aren't going to integrate and are going to prove a serious problem in one way or another. There's also all of those who've been traumatised and otherwise damaged by their awful experiences who're similarly likely to have serious problems unless they're given the long term support, counselling etc. required to help them recover. Given that we're clearly struggling to cope with our existing vulnerable, mentally ill etc., I have no idea how the resources necessary to stop such people descending (or being drawn into by others) into depression, drugs, criminality etc. are going to be found. I suspect the money/resources won't be found and what will happen is that these people will largely be left to get on with it and in time the rest of us will be required to pick up the pieces. That of course excludes the proportion of migrants who are plain criminals and quite possibly escaping 'justice' in their own countries or just looking for far richer pickings in the west. It doesn't take many to cause a whole lot of grief.

(* and given the huge numbers it doesn't have to be a large percentage to be a very serious issue)

[nomadking]

Originally Posted by roughbeast

Point One: Ignoring, of course, the >95% who will have children that will make a valuable contribution to society.

Point Two: It is all about opportunity, including resources. Hookers, even over-weight MILFS, cost money these guys haven't got. Young girls on the street are much more desirable, (After all that is what western porn shows them) , and they appear more accessible.

Point Three: There are even more non-Muslims about, with their own criminal networks. Your point is? The issue is the current psyche if some Muslim men and the fact that some have lost their moral certainties and have the opportunity.

Many of those from families that have been here a longer time, have children who have gone on to commit terrorist acts, join IS etc. Vetting those allowed to come here won't solve anything, just possibly delay it.

The gangs transport the girls around the country, things take place in hotels, the girls are given drink and drugs. That all costs money. Western porn routinely shows 13 year old girls being drugged and raped? Is there any sign they are watching any porn, never mind that sort? The gangs start off by attracting young girls to be their girlfriends. If it was remotely to do with sexual frustration, nothing much else would need to happen. No drink and drugs, no threats of violence, no trafficking around needed. If they can attract 13 year old girls, why can't they attract older females? Do they try?

Non-Muslim gangs tend to find it difficult to form in the first place. They can't just tap on the shoulder of the person working next to them and know that they will either join in or if not, they won't report them to the police for the suggestion. They don't tend to treat the victims in the extreme manner that the "Asian" gangs do. They don't tend to traffic the girls around. The "Asian" gangs tend to have just the gang members convicted. Not many of the OTHER men using them as prostitutes are convicted. That can be easily over 100 PER GANG. That distorts the figures making the awful "Asian" gangs figures several times lower than they really are.

[roughbeast]

Originally Posted by Osem

Of course the cultural differences being alluded to here ought to have been considered by those who decided that they'd simply open the floodgates to all and sundry without a thought about how to deal with the masses. As it is, there's a growing number of people* within the EU who, left to their own devices, aren't going to integrate and are going to prove a serious problem in one way or another. There's also all of those who've been traumatised and otherwise damaged by their awful experiences who're similarly likely to have serious problems unless they're given the long term support, counselling etc. required to help them recover. Given that we're clearly struggling to cope with our existing vulnerable, mentally ill etc., I have no idea how the resources necessary to stop such people descending (or being drawn into by others) into depression, drugs, criminality etc. are going to be found. I suspect the money/resources won't be found and what will happen is that these people will largely be left to get on with it and in time the rest of us will be required to pick up the pieces.

(* and given the huge numbers it doesn't have to be a large percentage to be a very serious issue)

Trouble is, I don't see what choice we had. We could not push the refugees back in the sea or back into Turkey could we? Given that the west created the problems that are causing the migration we had to do something and even if we hadn't caused the problem we couldn't have left 100s of thousands of men, women and children to almost certain death.

The last mass migration within Europe was just before and just after WW2. On those occasions prejudice was directed at the migrant Jews with their different dress, food, Jewish courts and their synagogues springing up all over the place. We solved the problem by allowing the creation of Israel, the biggest strategic mistake of the 20th Century. Those that stayed in Europe long-term have integrated very well indeed.

We have no such option today, so we have to be imaginative, proactive at the same time as welcoming until such time as Syria and Iraq are peaceful and secure enough to return to. Most will return to Syria and Iraq because that is their beloved home, where their neighbours lived and their ancestors
rest in peace. Put yourself in their position. You would want to return home, as did most non-Jewish migrants displaced by WW2.

There will be more problems with a minority of migrants. That will have to be dealt with by proper policing and enforcement. At the same time most migrants will begin to make a contribution to their host nations. These are often professional people, who had resources and networks in their ravaged homelands. They will mostly be an asset here until they are able to return home.

[Osem]

What we could have done is not simply opened the floodgates and in so doing encouraged even more people to come from places like Pakistan and many others. It was never going to be easy but sending out the 'welcome' message only served to attract more people to take their chances with people traffickers etc.

We should have been pouring resources into refugee camps and sending out the clear message that we weren't simply going to open ourselves up to anyone who turned up claiming to be a refugee. Furthermore we should have been saying that anyone admitted as a refugee would be expected to return home at a future, safe, time as a condition of their entry. As it is, with no such rule, we've sent out the message to all and sundry that, for a period, possibly brief, there's a chance to get into the EU, choose where you go and stay there. We've also raised the hopes of a great many people, who won't want to return to their homelands because they lie in ruins. I know I wouldn't want to trade in a nice relatively safe life in the EU for extreme uncertainty (and quite possibly worse) back home, especially if I'd built a new life and my children had become used to it.

No, none of the above would solve the problem we've face but IMHO it would have reduced the scale of the problem rather than compounded it which is what I believe has happened. Imaging the feelings of those who believe they were invited and welcomed into the EU only to find that welcome was short and the streets weren't bedecked with welcome signs. I think we're creating the conditions for a great deal of serious resentment which won't be quickly forgotten.

---------- Post added at 16:07 ---------- Previous post was at 15:53 ----------

German Chancellor Angela Merkel has proposed changes to make it easier to deport asylum-seekers who commit crimes, after the New Year's Eve sex attacks on women in Cologne.

The attacks, which victims say were carried out by men of North African and Arab appearance, have called into question her open-door migrant policy.

The police's handling of the events has also been sharply criticised.

Later, there were clashes at an anti-immigrant protest in Cologne.

Police used water cannon and pepper spray to disperse protesters from the the right-wing anti-immigrant Pegida movement as violence flared after a rally which heard condemnation of Mrs Merkel's policies.

Reports say bottles and firecrackers were hurled at police lines.

Saturday also saw protests by feminist groups over violence against women in the city, and a left-wing anti-Pegida counter-demonstration.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-35271171

[Taf]

The predicted great famines and droughts in India and Pakistan will make all this pale in comparison.

[roughbeast]

Originally Posted by nomadking

Many of those from families that have been here a longer time, have children who have gone on to commit terrorist acts, join IS etc. Vetting those allowed to come here won't solve anything, just possibly delay it.

The gangs transport the girls around the country, things take place in hotels, the girls are given drink and drugs. That all costs money. Western porn routinely shows 13 year old girls being drugged and raped? Is there any sign they are watching any porn, never mind that sort? The gangs start off by attracting young girls to be their girlfriends. If it was remotely to do with sexual frustration, nothing much else would need to happen. No drink and drugs, no threats of violence, no trafficking around needed. If they can attract 13 year old girls, why can't they attract older females? Do they try?

Non-Muslim gangs tend to find it difficult to form in the first place. They can't just tap on the shoulder of the person working next to them and know that they will either join in or if not, they won't report them to the police for the suggestion. They don't tend to treat the victims in the extreme manner that the "Asian" gangs do. They don't tend to traffic the girls around. The "Asian" gangs tend to have just the gang members convicted. Not many of the OTHER men using them as prostitutes are convicted. That can be easily over 100 PER GANG. That distorts the figures making the awful "Asian" gangs figures several times lower than they really are.

Your use of the word 'many' is very sloppy. At the very most we are talking about a handful here. The vast majority, as with the indigenous population, will be an asset.

You are confusing what happened here in the UK, with abuses of young girls by a tiny minority of working Asian men, with the situation fresh migrant men in Europe find themselves in. At the moment they are workless penniless which is why a handful have resorted to robbing my street theft as well as sexual assault. These are a different group than established people traffickers.

The amount of porn being watched by African and Asian men is astonishing. I believe this is driving the sex slave antics of ISIS. Osama bin Laden had a stash of porn in his hideout and evidence of online porn access. Check the stats yourself for which countries are the greatest users of porn. The UK and UK are high on the list too.

Porn access is beginning to increase the occurrences of sexual assaults by indigenous students on girls in our campuses. It is also becoming responsible for male impotence. Real sex rarely lives up to porn fantasies of sex with horny nubiles.

[techguyone]

Originally Posted by Taf

The predicted great famines and droughts in India and Pakistan will make all this pale in comparison.

Maybe they can come over too

[Osem]

Originally Posted by techguyone

Maybe they can come over too

Yup, what's to stop them?

[techguyone]

Room probably, if all of India/Pakistan came over, that's a LOT of people. We'd probably tip over or sink entirely.

[Taf]

So, many women were raped, accosted or robbed in Cologne, and the police did little or nothing at the time to stop it.

Today some anti-immigration people got water-cannoned and pepper-sprayed when they rallied to protest about it in the same city.

[Osem]

Originally Posted by techguyone

Room probably, if all of India/Pakistan came over, that's a LOT of people. We'd probably tip over or sink entirely.

Yeah but think of our GDP as we went under...

Anyone with a brain ought to know that rapid population growth isn't sustainable and certainly isn't the way to bring an end to such issues as housing/water/food shortages, pressure on services/infrastructure etc. etc. etc.

It doesn't make much sense to wait for the breaking point to be reached before accepting that there must be one...