Hamas Israel War

Originally Posted by Chris
The semantic hoops you jump through to avoid giving your own insight on Hamas’ actions are quite impressive.

Condemning Hamas isn’t "framing everything in a favourable way to Israel", except, it appears, in your eyes. You are taking the Corbynista approach of "condemning terrorists" or "condemning all civilian deaths", not condemning Hamas (whilst unequivocally, repeatedly, condemning Israel).

I have condemned actions on both sides - it’s not difficult (except for you...

[jfman]

Originally Posted by Hugh

Condemning Hamas isn’t "framing everything in a favourable way to Israel", except, it appears, in your eyes. You are taking the Corbynista approach of "condemning terrorists", not condemning Hamas….

I have condemned actions on both sides - it’s not difficult (except for you...

You will almost certainly find I acknowledge Hamas are terrorist group on multiple occasions.

It absolutely is favourable to Israel to say “Israel are committing war crimes but beheaded babies etc.” versus “Israel are committing war crimes of their own volition ignoring alternative means of achieving their military objectives that adhere to international law”.

[ianch99]

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

With you, it’s all ‘Israel bad this’, ‘Israel bad that’. How about ‘Hamas murderous bustards’? ‘Hamas need to be destroyed’?

There needs to be a cessation of the demand that every post about the behaviour of Israel is accompanied by a "Hamas is bad as well" commentary. To do this is to misdirect the narrative and make it all about how Hamas is only issue here.

I, for one, have condemned Hamas unequivocally and I am sure John has as well. To continue this, as others are also doing, is to ignore the wider questions regarding the actions of an out of control nation state terrorising a captive population.

[Sephiroth]

Originally Posted by jfman

They aren’t mutually exclusive positions and others are here for that insight.

It's you that's being called out for your blind one-sidedness.

[jfman]

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

It's you that's being called out for your blind one-sidedness.

And as I’ve indicated it’s an accusation at best without merit and at worst that only exists to regulate or censor criticism of Israel.

[Sephiroth]

Originally Posted by jfman

And as I’ve indicated it’s an accusation at best without merit and at worst that only exists to regulate or censor criticism of Israel.

No - when we see such persistent anti-Israel tone, it says something rather distasteful about you.

You completely ignore that Hamas hide behind civilians yet Israel must destroy them.

[Pierre]

I thought we may have moved the discussion on a little bit, given they have agreed to a 4 day ceasefire and release of 50 hostages in exchange for the release of imprisoned Palestinian terrorists.

[jfman]

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

No - when we see such persistent anti-Israel tone, it says something rather distasteful about you.

You completely ignore that Hamas hide behind civilians yet Israel must destroy them.

I’ve not ignored anything. I’m pointing out which party is committing the war crime. I can’t do anything if that fact makes you uncomfortable - it’s established international law.

The fact you accuse 300,000 people in this country campaigning for a ceasefire, for merely disagreeing with you, of being “pro-Hamas” is far more distasteful than my offerings (or lack of in some cases) in this thread.

---------- Post added at 16:00 ---------- Previous post was at 15:56 ----------

Originally Posted by Pierre

I thought we may have moved the discussion on a little bit, given they have agreed to a 4 day ceasefire and release of 50 hostages in exchange for the release of imprisoned Palestinian terrorists.

If they were truly terrorists Israel wouldn’t be exchanging three of them for every hostage. There’s women, children, and people detained awaiting trial for the heinous crimes of “incitement to stone throwing” and flying disagreeable flags.

[Pierre]

Originally Posted by jfman

children, and people detained awaiting trial for the heinous crimes of “incitement to stone throwing” and flying disagreeable flags.

It wasn’t all stones and flags

https://www-timesofisrael-com.cdn.am...jerusalem/amp/

Originally Posted by jfman

And as I’ve indicated it’s an accusation at best without merit

You are still the forums first choice for the job of PR for Hamas.

Yes, you bluff and bluster otherwise, but members are seeing past that.

Your anti Israeli rants have gone too far off the rails at least a couple of times now.

[jfman]

Originally Posted by Paul

You are still the forums first choice for the job of PR for Hamas.

Yes, you bluff and bluster otherwise, but members are seeing past that.

Your anti Israeli rants have gone too far off the rails at least a couple of times now.

Members are free to form their own opinions but I’m absolutely not doing PR for Hamas. Nobody, anywhere, will find a positive word I have to say about them. Conflating Hamas with all Palestinians is another unhelpful feature of pro-Israeli discourse.

Sure, I’m going against the pro-Israel unlimited and unrestricted right to self defence (ignoring international law, and their obligations as an occupying force) - seemingly a majority opinion in this thread if a minority in the country as a whole.

I wouldn’t agree that they have gone off the rails but I’ve certainly seen some posts removed rather than have anyone argue with the substance which is disappointing if I was wrong it should be easy to disprove. The claim that 300,000 protesters are “pro-Hamas” is more ridiculous than anything I’ve said and gets to stand.

Members can’t see past their own bias (I’ll include myself here) on the conflict, regardless of how many Palestinians die.

https://www.cableforum.uk/board/show...&postcount=152

I’m not sure the post above is good PR for Hamas.

https://www.cableforum.uk/board/show...&postcount=473

Here I discuss punishing Hamas while minimising civilian casualties.

https://www.cableforum.uk/board/show...&postcount=554

Again dismissing that Israel “do nothing”.

[Sephiroth]

Most members see what Hamas has done & what Israel then has to do.

[ianch99]

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

Most members see what Hamas has done & what Israel then has to do.

Disagree. Some members give Israel carte blanche with no attempt to criticise the current campaign but they, thankfully, seem in the minority.

Just to clarify, in terms of what Israel "has to do", how many dead civilians, women, children and babies, are "allowable" before you would say enough? 1000, 5000, 10000, 20000? If you sanction these deaths, you must be prepared to say how many can die before you would say enough, stop?

[Pierre]

Originally Posted by ianch99

Disagree. Some members give Israel carte blanche

I don’t give Israel anything, I don’t have to, Israel has a mandate from its people to take whatever measures are necessary for their security.

That’s it.

Originally Posted by Pierre

I don’t give Israel anything, I don’t have to, Israel has a mandate from its people to take whatever measures are necessary for their security.

That’s it.

It’s never as simple as just ‘it’.

Israel has international treaty obligations (shorthand: “international law”) that govern the way it undertakes military operations. As a sovereign democracy it can of course ignore international obligations in preference to the concerns of its citizens, but at the risk of long-term consequences for its wider support and influence in the world.

Their calculation right now appears to be that as Iran and certain unfriendly Arab regimes are backing Palestine and particularly Hamas, they effectively have the Americans over a barrel in terms of public criticism of their actions. Add to that Netanyahu’s desperation to recover from a very serious security failing that has his name all over it and Hamas’s failure to anticipate the scale of the response to their insane rampage and you have a complex, toxic and deadly situation in which a lot of innocent people are dying for the egos of a few very angry men.