Britain outside the EU

[jfman]

Might as well add a unicorn to the wish list. Can we have free trade with everyone, with all the advantages, no disadvantages and we make the rules despite being the smallest economy at the table in every meaningful discussion.

[OLD BOY]

Originally Posted by jfman

Might as well add a unicorn to the wish list. Can we have free trade with everyone, with all the advantages, no disadvantages and we make the rules despite being the smallest economy at the table in every meaningful discussion.

You know as well as I do that all we were looking for was to pull out of the EU with a trade deal, which would have been mutually beneficial.

You are trying to big this up into something it isn’t. Canada has one, but we are being penalised because we were in the EU and have now left.

[1andrew1]

Originally Posted by OLD BOY

Really?

https://www.express.co.uk/news/polit...-ITV-Peston-vn

Do you really believe someone who when questioned on coming out of the Russian Embassy told reporters he' forgotten the reason for his visit? Or held an account at Coutts, worked in the City for 20 years and didn't know that there were eligibility criteria around holding an account at Coutts?.

Really?

[jfman]

Originally Posted by OLD BOY

You know as well as I do that all we were looking for was to pull out of the EU with a trade deal, which would have been mutually beneficial.

You are trying to big this up into something it isn’t. Canada has one, but we are being penalised because we were in the EU and have now left.

Who is this “we” you speak of?

Any literature giving a comprehensive view of what our relationship with the EU would look like that predates the referendum is notably absent. Norway, the EEA, a customs union all floated at some point or another from the charlatans that claimed to be steering the leave campaign.

There’s no evidence to support your spurious assertion that we are being “penalised”. You are simply trying to shift the blame for the inadequacies of this Government onto someone else. A staple of your input into the current affairs section.

[1andrew1]

Originally Posted by OLD BOY

You know as well as I do that all we were looking for was to pull out of the EU with a trade deal, which would have been mutually beneficial.

Your disgraced Boris Johnson took us out of Thatcher's Single Market. If he wanted frictionless trade, this was not the way to go about it!

How is our trade deal with the EU any worse than Canada's?

Originally Posted by jfman

Who is this “we” you speak of?
Any literature giving a comprehensive view of what our relationship with the EU would look like that predates the referendum is notably absent. Norway, the EEA, a customs union all floated at some point or another from the charlatans that claimed to be steering the leave campaign.

There’s no evidence to support your spurious assertion that we are being “penalised”. You are simply trying to shift the blame for the inadequacies of this Government onto someone else. A staple of your input into the current affairs section.

It's a perverse approach. The Conservatives have held power since 2010 but Old Boy seeks to blame everyone but them. This blame-everyone-but-those-in-charge-approach wouldn't last five minutes in the real world!

[OLD BOY]

Originally Posted by 1andrew1

Do you really believe someone who when questioned on coming out of the Russian Embassy told reporters he' forgotten the reason for his visit? Or held an account at Coutts, worked in the City for 20 years and didn't know that there were eligibility criteria around holding an account at Coutts?.

Really?

He says he didn’t ever say that we should have remained in the Customs Union, you say he did.

Where’s your evidence that he’s telling porkies? The fact that you may not lie him, agree with him or believe anything he says is not evidence.

You are the one who said he did. Why?

---------- Post added at 16:41 ---------- Previous post was at 16:33 ----------

Originally Posted by jfman

Who is this “we” you speak of?

Any literature giving a comprehensive view of what our relationship with the EU would look like that predates the referendum is notably absent. Norway, the EEA, a customs union all floated at some point or another from the charlatans that claimed to be steering the leave campaign.

There’s no evidence to support your spurious assertion that we are being “penalised”. You are simply trying to shift the blame for the inadequacies of this Government onto someone else. A staple of your input into the current affairs section.

‘We’ as a country. Or at least the majority of voters who voted, but I was of course referring to the government.

If you cannot understand the straight forward point that we were penalised then clearly you are a remainer who is wedded ideologically with the concept and ideology of the EU, in which case no amount of explaining is going to shift your opinion.

If we were to be in the Customs Union it would restrict our freedom to trade the way we want with the rest of the world and that, my friend, is unreasonable. No other trade deals anywhere else in the world contain such unreasonable restrictions.

[1andrew1]

Originally Posted by OLD BOY

He says he didn’t ever say that we should have remained in the Customs Union, you say he did.

Where’s your evidence that he’s telling porkies? The fact that you may not lie him, agree with him or believe anything he says is not evidence.

You are the one who said he did. Why?

We're discussing the Single Market, not the Customs Union.

As I said old Boy, why do you trust someone who's known for bending the truth? Do you not think that's a bit risky, even if you find his populistic approach easy on the ear?

Some evidence, particularly 01:16
https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/ent...b09025ba310fce

Also: https://bbench.co.uk/2021/09/22/the-...single-market/

[jfman]

Originally Posted by OLD BOY

‘We’ as a country. Or at least the majority of voters who voted, but I was of course referring to the government.

Wasn’t Government policy to remain in the referendum?

If you cannot understand the straight forward point that we were penalised then clearly you are a remainer who is wedded ideologically with the concept and ideology of the EU, in which case no amount of explaining is going to shift your opinion.

It’s not a “straight forward point” if it’s merely an opinion without any evidence upon which to base your claim.

If we were to be in the Customs Union it would restrict our freedom to trade the way we want with the rest of the world and that, my friend, is unreasonable. No other trade deals anywhere else in the world contain such unreasonable restrictions.

It’s unreasonable to expect to gain all the benefits of being in a club you’ve left without actually being in it, my friend.

[OLD BOY]

Originally Posted by 1andrew1

We're discussing the Single Market, not the Customs Union.

As I said old Boy, why do you trust someone who's known for bending the truth? Do you not think that's a bit risky, even if you find his populistic approach easy on the ear?

Some evidence, particularly 01:16
https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/ent...b09025ba310fce

Also: https://bbench.co.uk/2021/09/22/the-...single-market/

So your evidence is based on this one quote, which was Farage trying to make a point:

“would it be so bad if, according to Mr Cameron, if we behave like Norway, life would be terrible. I mean, God, we’d all be rich! we were like Norway. We’d be rich”.

He was referring to the nonsense of the statement made by Cameron about Norway. Now the mischief makers have turned that into an allegation that Farage wanted to stay within the single market!

Staying within the Single Market was never an option for Brexiteers because it would involve the free movement of people. It also involves abiding by EU laws and accepting judgements of the ECJ.

Finally, I was not asking you about whether or not Farage was telling the truth. You avoided the question, which was where was your proof that he said that.

Your example(s) (they both contain the same quote) do not prove your point at all.

---------- Post added at 20:17 ---------- Previous post was at 20:12 ----------

Originally Posted by jfman

Wasn’t Government policy to remain in the referendum?

.

It was prior to but not after the referendum.

Originally Posted by jfman

It’s not a “straight forward point” if it’s merely an opinion without any evidence upon which to base your claim.

.

I think the evidence is that we have not been able to secure a Canadian type trade deal. You know this to be true, so why do you perversely act as if you don’t know what I am talking about?

Originally Posted by jfman

It’s unreasonable to expect to gain all the benefits of being in a club you’ve left without actually being in it, my friend

.

It is unreasonable when trade deals are being offered to other countries but not ours. My friend.

[jfman]

Originally Posted by OLD BOY

So your evidence is based on this one quote, which was Farage trying to make a point:

“would it be so bad if, according to Mr Cameron, if we behave like Norway, life would be terrible. I mean, God, we’d all be rich! we were like Norway. We’d be rich”.

He was referring to the nonsense of the statement made by Cameron about Norway. Now the mischief makers have turned that into an allegation that Farage wanted to stay within the single market!

Staying within the Single Market was never an option for Brexiteers because it would involve the free movement of people. It also involves abiding by EU laws and accepting judgements of the ECJ.

Finally, I was not asking you about whether or not Farage was telling the truth. You avoided the question, which was where was your proof that he said that.

Your example(s) (they both contain the same quote) do not prove your point at all.

---------- Post added at 20:17 ---------- Previous post was at 20:12 ----------



It was prior to but not after the referendum.

I think the evidence is that we have not been able to secure a Canadian type trade deal. You know this to be true, so why do you perversely act as if you don’t know what I am talking about?

It is unreasonable when trade deals are being offered to other countries but not ours. My friend.

OB the problem isn’t that I don’t know what you are talking about, it’s that YOU don’t know what you are talking about.

On what basis do you profess that we should automatically have had the right to a Canada type deal? None whatsoever.

The whole point of the Canada trade deal is to improve trade with Canada which already has a significant barrier to overcome - the Atlantic Ocean. In no way, shape or form can trade between Canada and the EU be considered comparable to the UK and the EU.

[1andrew1]

Originally Posted by OLD BOY

So your evidence is based on this one quote, which was Farage trying to make a point:

“would it be so bad if, according to Mr Cameron, if we behave like Norway, life would be terrible. I mean, God, we’d all be rich! we were like Norway. We’d be rich”.

He was referring to the nonsense of the statement made by Cameron about Norway. Now the mischief makers have turned that into an allegation that Farage wanted to stay within the single market!

Watch the recording - Farage said "We'll find ourselves part of the European Economic Area, and with a free trade deal."

Originally Posted by OLD BOY

Staying within the Single Market was never an option for Brexiteers because it would involve the free movement of people. It also involves abiding by EU laws and accepting judgements of the ECJ.

Watch the recording and hear the Brexiters lining up to contradict you.

Dan Hannan, Vote Leave "Absolutely nobody is talking about threatening our place in the Single Market"

Owen Paterson "Only a madman would leave the Market."

Arron Banks "Increasingly, the Norway option looks the best for the UK."
Will you be a gentleman and accept you are wrong?

Originally Posted by OLD BOY

Finally, I was not asking you about whether or not Farage was telling the truth. You avoided the question, which was where was your proof that he said that.

Your example(s) (they both contain the same quote) do not prove your point at all.

How many more examples do you want? The one above in which Farage says we'll find ourselves part of the European Economic Area suffices.

[OLD BOY]

Originally Posted by 1andrew1

Will you be a gentleman and accept you are wrong?

Yes, I will, sorry. We are at cross purposes. When these comments were made Farage and the others were simply saying that there was no reason why Britain could not continue to have free access to the Single Market because all our standards were in line with theirs.

What they were not saying was that we would have to accept free movement and the rest. But unfortunately, that is what the EU insisted on, and we were in no position to press our views home because firstly Theresa May lost her nerve with David Davis as he was holding out, and she stepped in to negotiate her way, and secondly, the hostility and determination of the Remainers, who were even briefing the EU against us.

Farage and co were not lying, they were simply undermined in the end by opposing forces which made it impossible to negotiate effectively. And that, of course was why Johnson said in the end that the deal would be better renegotiated when we were outside of the EU.

As for whether that will be done rather more successfully, I guess it depends on who is in power and in charge of this country at the time.

[jfman]

That’s a long winded way of either saying they are idiots or liars.

Anyone who seriously claimed we could have had the benefits of being in the Single Market without recognising the supremacy of EU in setting those rules (and the role of the ECJ in enforcing them) can only be one or the other.

Invoking remainers is nothing but whataboutery. The EU rationally negotiated, in it’s own interests. Something that should have come as a shock to absolutely no-one.

[Sephiroth]

Originally Posted by jfman

That’s a long winded way of either saying they are idiots or liars.

Anyone who seriously claimed we could have had the benefits of being in the Single Market without recognising the supremacy of EU in setting those rules (and the role of the ECJ in enforcing them) can only be one or the other.

Invoking remainers is nothing but whataboutery. The EU rationally negotiated, in it’s own interests. Something that should have come as a shock to absolutely no-one.

No arguing with that. A pity that we didn't just walk away.
It would have hurt them because of the exit fee and damage to Ireland's economy (the perfidious Varadkar, remember).

[OLD BOY]

Originally Posted by jfman

That’s a long winded way of either saying they are idiots or liars.

Anyone who seriously claimed we could have had the benefits of being in the Single Market without recognising the supremacy of EU in setting those rules (and the role of the ECJ in enforcing them) can only be one or the other.

Invoking remainers is nothing but whataboutery. The EU rationally negotiated, in it’s own interests. Something that should have come as a shock to absolutely no-one.

You are not listening - you never do. Farage and co said what they believed was possible. The fact that it was tackled the wrong way does not make him a liar. That is a very perverse logic.

I might tell my wife that it is possible to carry a certain amount of cups and plates on a tray. If she trips and falls and breaks everything, does that make me a liar? Of course not. I might tell my grandson that he is capable of passing an examination, but if he doesn’t study enough and he fails, does that make me a liar?

I ‘invoked’ remainers because they were so intent on wrecking the negotiations as they wanted to get their own way. Your ‘invoking’ the whataboutery card is nonsense because it was those activities which were largely responsible for disruption to the negotiations. It is a reason, not a ‘whataboutery’. People tend to use ‘whataboutery’ to prevent a logical argument highlighting an alternative they don’t like, because it neuters their own argument. It’s the coward’s way out of a discussion.

The EU was not irrational in trying that line with us, I agree, and I didn’t say otherwise. Theresa May took the rug from under the feet of the Brexiteers, and that was the first thing that put us on the back foot, which was a gift the the remain lobby.