Football : Season 2013/14 & Summer Window

Originally Posted by Russ

I'm sorry are you really comparing Arsenal to teams who had success almost a generation ago? 10 years ago Arsenal were winning league titles and had done for about the previous 5 years or so, they were the 'Invincibles', trophies etc, hit a barren spell from hell and haven't recovered - without any indication of wanting to recover. Selling your best players to pay for a new stadium is pretty awful going. OK that may not really be what happened but where is all the money they've had from transfers?

It's not awful going. Look how difficult a stadium has proved for Spurs and Liverpool. Arsenal at least have an ability to compete for a long time to go thanks to the stadium and Wenger kept them in the Champions League during that time. Football can leave great, historic, teams behind quite quickly and Arsenal made the transition quite smoothly all things considered.

Yes they lost today but the season still has 37 games to go and the transfer window is still open. Arsenal need to get on with it and sign some players and if not those responsible will have to be held to account if Arsenal don't do well this season.

History means nothing however. Plenty of clubs have a brilliant history. Doesn't mean they're underachieving. West Ham had some of the best English players ever and they're not going to win the league this year, doesn't reflect badly on them and they even have a new stadium to come. Huddersfield have had two of the greatest managers ever know to the English game: Shankly and Chapman. They're a long way from the premier league. Nottingham Forest are one of our oldest clubs and have won European cups! History is just that. No one is entitled to a dominance or cups irrespective of how great their club is.

I compare them because the expectation should be linked to their realistic ability to compete for the season ahead and not what they've done before.

---------- Post added at 00:27 ---------- Previous post was at 00:21 ----------

Originally Posted by Russ

If United went on to have the next 8 years the same as Arsenal did since their last trophy I'd consider that a crisis. For a team like West Ham what the Gunners have done in that time may seem like major achievements but for big clubs it's pretty bleak.

Prior to Wenger the difference between West Ham and Arsenal weren't that big. Both classic British clubs. Arsenal won a few more titles and West Ham boasted a history of great players. The real difference between West Ham and Arsenal was Wenger and luck. Wenger rose Arsenal to a level that took full advantage of the explosion in Premier League revenue and, more importantly, access to the millions of the Champions League. Arsenal were one of the big guns at that time, due to Wenger, and as a result they are where they are now. New stadium, one of the 'big clubs', and supporters around the world. It could so easily have been Blackburn, West Ham, Leeds, Newcastle and others.

[thenry]

Originally Posted by MarkC1984

Trouble is, it is all very well for everyone to be saying Wenger needs to be buying players. But Arsenal are at a disadvantage in 2 ways.

One, they do not have the money resources of City or Chelsea, but because of the name and the success they have had in the past prices go up when Arsenal come sniffing around.

Arsenal could spend 100m right now http://swissramble.blogspot.co.uk/20...r-2-night.html

The inflation is set in the game Mark. Whether its Arsenal going in or not the inflation is here and its going to stay. we just have to deal with it to the best of our ability as in negotiating.

Originally Posted by MarkC1984

Two, going without a trophy for so long means players will not want to go there. But that is a vicious circle. Arsenal need new players to win the trophies to tempt more big names to the club, but without trophy wins for 7 years players will not look at Arsenal.

It is hard to prize away talent from other clubs whom are competing but there have been players available, still are too.

Arsenal have been said to be very very slow completing deals. Its either differing over players or looking at the value. Arsene Wenger is on a mission to bring the market into control, well he wont pay inflation he'll take it but wont pay it. the guy is truly nuts. hes tried to get the January window closed. He wants the window to be closed before the season fixtures start. The summer window drags out for a good reason, so clubs can tweak etc. the January window is there for patch up.

Back in the day when the club had David Dein, the late Fiszman etc. it was a circle of different strengths which all worked together. at the moment we have narrow vision, 1 vision and thats it. the club needs to be shaken and that will only truly come about if Dein is brought back and Red&White (Usmanov) is invited onto the board.

what is happening at Arsenal isn't in the best interest of Arsenal. Its in the best interest of the old dinosaurs. the tradition wouldnt be compromised by Usmanov or Dein. its the dinosaurs egos that would be compromised.

sorry for venting its just schoolboy. on the pitch and off it.

[Russ]

Originally Posted by TheDaddy

West ham have won a trophy in the last eight years and united have gone longer than eight years without winning something before although given your multi club status bothering to research your chosen club of the days history is probably a little much to ask

Which trophy have they won? I can find nothing of it on Wikipedia - I'm talking trophies of any real significance to big clubs, seeing as you're again seemingly trying to compare your team to big clubs.

As we're talking about the modern era, if United had achieved what West Ham had only managed to knock together over 8 years then yes that would be considered a major crisis. Hell, if Arsenal had only managed what Swansea had come up with since 2005 it would be the same. But again in terms of success there's little point in comparing teams like Swansea and West Ham to United and Arsenal.

Originally Posted by TheDaddy

and since when did the Welsh become a race, I know the wee nations generally suffer from a bit of an inferiority complex but designating yourselves as a race is not going to cure that.

Would 'bigot' suit you better?

---------- Post added at 06:23 ---------- Previous post was at 06:14 ----------

Originally Posted by Damien

It's not awful going. Look how difficult a stadium has proved for Spurs and Liverpool. Arsenal at least have an ability to compete for a long time to go thanks to the stadium and Wenger kept them in the Champions League during that time. Football can leave great, historic, teams behind quite quickly and Arsenal made the transition quite smoothly all things considered.

Yes they lost today but the season still has 37 games to go and the transfer window is still open. Arsenal need to get on with it and sign some players and if not those responsible will have to be held to account if Arsenal don't do well this season.

History means nothing however. Plenty of clubs have a brilliant history. Doesn't mean they're underachieving. West Ham had some of the best English players ever and they're not going to win the league this year, doesn't reflect badly on them and they even have a new stadium to come. Huddersfield have had two of the greatest managers ever know to the English game: Shankly and Chapman. They're a long way from the premier league. Nottingham Forest are one of our oldest clubs and have won European cups! History is just that. No one is entitled to a dominance or cups irrespective of how great their club is.

I compare them because the expectation should be linked to their realistic ability to compete for the season ahead and not what they've done before.

All seems a bit like sentimentality to me - you cannot seriously deny there has been a significant decline in Arsenal's results, fortunes and abilities in 8 years. As much as I can't stand your club, during the early to mid 2000s they were one of the PL's dominant teams. The fact is they no longer have any of that intimidation factor and as is, show no signs of resurrecting it.

Originally Posted by Damien

Prior to Wenger the difference between West Ham and Arsenal weren't that big. Both classic British clubs. Arsenal won a few more titles and West Ham boasted a history of great players. The real difference between West Ham and Arsenal was Wenger and luck. Wenger rose Arsenal to a level that took full advantage of the explosion in Premier League revenue and, more importantly, access to the millions of the Champions League. Arsenal were one of the big guns at that time, due to Wenger, and as a result they are where they are now. New stadium, one of the 'big clubs', and supporters around the world. It could so easily have been Blackburn, West Ham, Leeds, Newcastle and others.

But you've just said 'history means nothing' - presumably you're talking about modern era too? As you say Arsenal were one of the big teams but to go from being invincible to winning nothing (and not looking like that would change) for 8 years, selling all the best players without adequately replacing them - I tell you this, if that's what happens to United under Moyes then yes that will be a crisis but I can't see the board holding on to him for half the time Wenger has managed it if he fails to bring in any trophies.

For a team still considered one of the 'big 6' simply reaching the Champion's League final or just coming second in the league should never be accepted as legitimate 'achievements'.

[TheDaddy]

Originally Posted by Russ

Which trophy have they won? I can find nothing of it on Wikipedia - I'm talking trophies of any real significance to big clubs, seeing as you're again seemingly trying to compare your team to big clubs.

As we're talking about the modern era, if United had achieved what West Ham had only managed to knock together over 8 years then yes that would be considered a major crisis. Hell, if Arsenal had only managed what Swansea had come up with since 2005 it would be the same. But again in terms of success there's little point in comparing teams like Swansea and West Ham to United and Arsenal.




Would 'bigot' suit you better?

I would say the trophy for the richest prize in the planet is quite significant and it was you that did the comparing, I was merely pointing out your comparison was flawed. Oh modern era is it now, when does that start with the formation of the premier league, I wouldn't expect anything other from a supporter like yourself.

Link with pic of trophy

No Russ bigot wouldn't suit me better, I'll put it down to English not being your first language though rather than a cheap shot, either way it's not the right word.

[Russ]

Originally Posted by TheDaddy

I would say the trophy for the richest prize in the planet is quite significant and it was you that did the comparing, I was merely pointing out your comparison was flawed. Oh modern era is it now, when does that start with the formation of the premier league, I wouldn't expect anything other from a supporter like yourself.

YES modern era seeing as this part of the discussion was started with talk of how Arsenal have failed to win anything in 8 years. Do keep up.

Originally Posted by TheDaddy

Link with pic of trophy

I saw that but was convinced you couldn't be serious. OK let me rephrase my point to make it easier for you: If in the 8 years (since they won the PL and were the 'Invincibles' so yes, the modern era) all Arsenal had won was the trophy for returning to the PL after an impressive relegation then yes I'd call that a crisis.

It happened to Leeds and Blackburn 20 years ago and look how quickly they became 'also-rans'. I've seen nothing to suggest Arsenal won't go the same way.

[TheDaddy]

Originally Posted by Russ

YES modern era seeing as this part of the discussion was started with talk of how Arsenal have failed to win anything in 8 years. Do keep up.



I saw that but was convinced you couldn't be serious. OK let me rephrase my point to make it easier for you: If in the 8 years (since they won the PL and were the 'Invincibles' so yes, the modern era) all Arsenal had won was the trophy for returning to the PL after an impressive relegation then yes I'd call that a crisis.

It happened to Leeds and Blackburn 20 years ago and look how quickly they became 'also-rans'. I've seen nothing to suggest Arsenal won't go the same way.

How you wriggle Russ, it was you that said neither club had won a trophy for eight years and were wrong, you then attempted to change it to significant trophy when it's a richer prize than world cup or champions league. So the modern era is now only a decade, hardly an era, not even a decade and one in which arsenal reached a champions league final, something city and all their billions couldn't achieve.

[colin25]

Originally Posted by TheDaddy

How you wriggle Russ, it was you that said neither club had won a trophy for eight years and were wrong, you then attempted to change it to significant trophy when it's a richer prize than world cup or champions league. So the modern era is now only a decade, hardly an era, not even a decade and one in which arsenal reached a champions league final, something city and all their billions couldn't achieve.

Why bring city into the argument?

Oh, is it because City are expected to finish in the top 4, have won a title in recent years, as opposed to Arsenal who if lucky might get into top 4?

[Russ]

Originally Posted by TheDaddy

How you wriggle Russ, it was you that said neither club had won a trophy for eight years and were wrong, you then attempted to change it to significant trophy when it's a richer prize than world cup or champions league.

I can admit I'm wrong, I'm not so up myself that I'm incapable of it but the general point I made stands. If that's all Arsenal won in that time then yes, a crisis.

Originally Posted by TheDaddy

So the modern era is now only a decade, hardly an era, not even a decade and one in which arsenal reached a champions league final, something city and all their billions couldn't achieve.

Seriously why are you finding this so difficult to understand? I assume you're not being deliberately awkward? Yes the modern era seeing as this part of the discussion is about Arsenal's failure to win anything in the 8 years since the FA Cup in 2005.

If you don't want to call that the modern era then fine call it what you will but I'd rather you concentrate on the point at hand rather than silly games with words.

For a team like West Ham to reach the CL final during those 8 years then yes I'm sure that would be considered an almost cosmic achievement but Arsenal at that point were on the back of being a much bigger and successful team. They went from being 'invincible' to almost a comedy team. If you can't see that then frankly you don't know football.

[TheDaddy]

Originally Posted by Russ

I can admit I'm wrong, I'm not so up myself that I'm incapable of it but the general point I made stands. If that's all Arsenal won in that time then yes, a crisis.



Seriously why are you finding this so difficult to understand? I assume you're not being deliberately awkward? Yes the modern era seeing as this part of the discussion is about Arsenal's failure to win anything in the 8 years since the FA Cup in 2005.

If you don't want to call that the modern era then fine call it what you will but I'd rather you concentrate on the point at hand rather than silly games with words.

For a team like West Ham to reach the CL final during those 8 years then yes I'm sure that would be considered an almost cosmic achievement but Arsenal at that point were on the back of being a much bigger and successful team. They went from being 'invincible' to almost a comedy team. If you can't see that then frankly you don't know football.

What was anyone really expecting, as I said it's been a miracle they're still in the top four considering they've made rivals stronger and not invested the cash. I don't think it a crisis that they haven't won a league cup during the last eight years, I think they'd rather have the consecutive champions league campaigns personally.

---------- Post added at 14:07 ---------- Previous post was at 14:05 ----------

Originally Posted by colin25

Why bring city into the argument?

Oh, is it because City are expected to finish in the top 4, have won a title in recent years, as opposed to Arsenal who if lucky might get into top 4?

Because they've spent a fortune and arsenal haven't

[colin25]

Originally Posted by TheDaddy

What was anyone really expecting, as I said it's been a miracle they're still in the top four considering they've made rivals stronger and not invested the cash. I don't think it a crisis that they haven't won a league cup during the last eight years, I think they'd rather have the consecutive champions league campaigns personally.

---------- Post added at 14:07 ---------- Previous post was at 14:05 ----------



Because they've spent a fortune and arsenal haven't

My view is that if someone has money...they can spend it where ever they like.

Burn it, eat it..do whatever.

If foolish enough to support a football team, so be it.

there is no such thing as equal footing, and the only way you can really do that, is to state that each team can only spend a certain amount of money. if they did that, so be it. Otherwise, it is pointless to worry about money.

It isn't the money that is ruining the game, it is the idiots in charge

[TheDaddy]

Originally Posted by colin25

My view is that if someone has money...they can spend it where ever they like.

Burn it, eat it..do whatever.

If foolish enough to support a football team, so be it.

there is no such thing as equal footing, and the only way you can really do that, is to state that each team can only spend a certain amount of money. if they did that, so be it. Otherwise, it is pointless to worry about money.

It isn't the money that is ruining the game, it is the idiots in charge

Not knocking anyone for spending cash, just saying arsenal haven't and are struggling to compete, I do wonder what arsenals reason is for not spending, is there any cash there, we've heard them say there was before and it turned out there wasn't any iirc. Is it wenger or the board that can't get deals done, Gustavo, higuain and Cesar all said the wanted to join and as yet haven't.

[colin25]

Originally Posted by TheDaddy

Not knocking anyone for spending cash, just saying arsenal haven't and are struggling to compete, I do wonder what arsenals reason is for not spending, is there any cash there, we've heard them say there was before and it turned out there wasn't any iirc. Is it wenger or the board that can't get deals done, Gustavo, higuain and Cesar all said the wanted to join and as yet haven't.

I can't believe there isn't cash. Not aware you have high salaries, you lost a lot of deadwood, and must have cash to burn.

The issue seems to be (from my view), this slavish insistence on not paying a penny more than the value you put on a player. whilst admirable in certain instances, sometimes you need to pay a bit more, if you really want a player.

Eg if Arsenal really wanted Higuain, pay the extra few million.

[thenry]

Originally Posted by Cobbydaler

Another one turns us down because we're not a high profile club

http://www.ftbpro.com/reader/david.h...am=Southampton

it looks like this is happening now

http://www.gianlucadimarzio.com/calc...g-southampton/

[TheDaddy]

Originally Posted by colin25

I can't believe there isn't cash. Not aware you have high salaries, you lost a lot of deadwood, and must have cash to burn.

The issue seems to be (from my view), this slavish insistence on not paying a penny more than the value you put on a player. whilst admirable in certain instances, sometimes you need to pay a bit more, if you really want a player.

Eg if Arsenal really wanted Higuain, pay the extra few million.

Could be, it's the board that does the.negotiating though and depending on wengers involvement it could be that he's shielding them again.

Btw I'm not an arsenal fan, I was a massive fan of wenger though and would.like to be again.

Originally Posted by colin25

Why bring city into the argument?

Oh, is it because City are expected to finish in the top 4, have won a title in recent years, as opposed to Arsenal who if lucky might get into top 4?

City are expected to be title contenders due to the money they've invested in the squad and the considerable quality that's brought.

Originally Posted by Russ

Seriously why are you finding this so difficult to understand? I assume you're not being deliberately awkward? Yes the modern era seeing as this part of the discussion is about Arsenal's failure to win anything in the 8 years since the FA Cup in 2005.

If you don't want to call that the modern era then fine call it what you will but I'd rather you concentrate on the point at hand rather than silly games with words.

For a team like West Ham to reach the CL final during those 8 years then yes I'm sure that would be considered an almost cosmic achievement but Arsenal at that point were on the back of being a much bigger and successful team. They went from being 'invincible' to almost a comedy team. If you can't see that then frankly you don't know football.

But this only works if you ignore the changes that occurred since the Invincible era. The stadium, the arrival of Chelsea, and so on. Arsenal didn't simply fall away. They intentionally become less competitive in order to finance a stadium which is turn would, in theory, have allowed them to compete at the highest level later. It's more a case of struggling to get back now the money is there but it's disingenuous to claim they've become a comedy team because they're not the team there were 10 years ago.

Originally Posted by colin25

I can't believe there isn't cash. Not aware you have high salaries, you lost a lot of deadwood, and must have cash to burn.

The issue seems to be (from my view), this slavish insistence on not paying a penny more than the value you put on a player. whilst admirable in certain instances, sometimes you need to pay a bit more, if you really want a player.

Eg if Arsenal really wanted Higuain, pay the extra few million.

There is cash and what has happened this window is so difficult to understand. If Wenger is really refusing to buy players then his time at Arsenal is likely coming towards an end. However I live in hope that the window doesn't closed yet and that this same team actually showed quite capable towards the end of the last season so doesn't need a radical overhaul, just a sprinkling of world class talent imo...