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-   -   Tory free schools policy results in girls as young as four forced to wear hijabs (https://www.cableforum.uk/board/showthread.php?t=33705434)

1andrew1 24-09-2017 23:03
Tory free schools policy results in girls as young as four forced to wear hijabs
 
Does this show that education and religion should be separated?
Quote:
Girls as young as four are being “forced to wear the hijab” as uniform at state-funded Islamic schools, new research has found.
More than two in five Islamic schools in England that accept girls require them to wear a hijab as school uniform, according to the research.
Some 59 of 142 (42 per cent) of Islamic schools, including 27 primary schools, have a uniform policy which states a head-covering is compulsory, the National Secular Society (NSS) said.
The body has written to Education Secretary Justine Greening to express its concern over the figures, which also showed eight of the secondary schools and three of the primary schools were state-funded.
https://www.standard.co.uk/news/educ...-a3642331.html

TheDaddy 24-09-2017 23:09
Re: Tory free schools policy results in girls as young as four forced to wear hijabs
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 35917825)
Does this show that education and religion should be separated?

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/educ...-a3642331.html
I'm confused, why do 4 year olds need a hijab, I'd be interested to see what Islamic text or culture require really little girls to cover up

1andrew1 24-09-2017 23:21
Re: Tory free schools policy results in girls as young as four forced to wear hijabs
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDaddy (Post 35917827)
I'm confused, why do 4 year olds need a hijab, I'd be interested to see what Islamic text or culture require really little girls to cover up
Exactly, I didn't get that email either! If we're trying to integrate people and avoid radicalisation, giving schools this type of freedom is not the way to do it!

pip08456 24-09-2017 23:56
Re: Tory free schools policy results in girls as young as four forced to wear hijabs
 
This has nothing whatsoever to do with education per se but more to do with religion and certainly has nothing to do with Tory party policy.

Religious schools have existed in this country for centuries. The problem here is the religion and the interpretation of both those running the school and the parents of the children.

Good luck in changing their views.

1andrew1 25-09-2017 00:30
Re: Tory free schools policy results in girls as young as four forced to wear hijabs
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by pip08456 (Post 35917832)
This has nothing whatsoever to do with education per se but more to do with religion and certainly has nothing to do with Tory party policy.

Religious schools have existed in this country for centuries. The problem here is the religion and the interpretation of both those running the school and the parents of the children.

Good luck in changing their views.
Tory party policy is to encourage and state-fund religious schools in preference to council-run schools. Preferably with light-touch, red-tape-free regulation, And this, as the article explains, is one of the consequences.
You don't need to change extremists' views. Just don't hand over tax-payers' money to them.

pip08456 25-09-2017 00:33
Re: Tory free schools policy results in girls as young as four forced to wear hijabs
 
Care to post a link to that policy?

nomadking 25-09-2017 00:46
Re: Tory free schools policy results in girls as young as four forced to wear hijabs
 
Here's a clue.
Article from 2007.
Quote:
There are 126 full-time Muslim schools in England, according to the Department for Education and Skills. The vast majority (115) are independent. Just eight Muslim schools are state-funded and another three have been approved to open in the state sector.
The numbers have increased in recent years. In 2003, there were 53 Muslim schools.
2007 was before 2010.

TheDaddy 25-09-2017 01:17
Re: Tory free schools policy results in girls as young as four forced to wear hijabs
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by pip08456 (Post 35917832)
This has nothing whatsoever to do with education per se but more to do with religion and certainly has nothing to do with Tory party policy.

Religious schools have existed in this country for centuries. The problem here is the religion and the interpretation of both those running the school and the parents of the children.

Good luck in changing their views.
What part of the religion says four year olds have to be covered up?

pip08456 25-09-2017 01:26
Re: Tory free schools policy results in girls as young as four forced to wear hijabs
 
Quote:
State-funded schools in England are schools in England which provide education to pupils between the ages of 3 and 18 without charge. Approximately 93% of English schoolchildren attend such schools.[1] These include academy schools, community schools, foundation schools, voluntary aided schools and voluntary controlled schools; a small number are state boarding schools and three are City Technology Colleges. A significant minority are faith schools, which are attached to religious groups, most often the Church of England or the Roman Catholic Church.

Free schools, introduced by the Conservative-Liberal Democrat coalition following the 2010 general election, are newly established schools in England set up by parents, teachers, charities or businesses, where there is a perceived local need for more schools. They are funded by taxpayers, are academically non-selective and free to attend, and like Foundation schools and Academies, are not controlled by a local authority. They are ultimately accountable to the Secretary of State for Education, and are conceptually based on similar schools found in Sweden, Chile, New Zealand, Canada and the United States, where they are known as Charter schools. Free schools are an extension of the existing Academy Programme, and are in fact legally identical to Academies with the term "Free School" being used for Academies that are newly established under the Governments Free School Initiative rather than being an existing school converted to Academy status. The Academies Act 2010 authorises the creation of free schools and allows all existing state schools to become Academy schools. Persons or groups seeking to set up a Free School may obtain assistance from the government supported New Schools Network. This last should not be confused with the Local Schools Network which is a group set up to oppose both Free Schools, and indeed the whole Academy program. The first 24 free schools opened in Autumn 2011.

Link

Of course if anyone has a link to a change in this policy I would gladly bow my head in respect.

RizzyKing 25-09-2017 01:46
Re: Tory free schools policy results in girls as young as four forced to wear hijabs
 
I know one of my friends pulled his children out of an islamic school prefering to place them in an ordinary school because of ever strictor interpretations of islam. Being honest I don't like faith schools and in this day and age i think we are nearing the point where it might be time to abolish them and all children just go to ordinary schools and it would certainly aid certain groups in society integrating far better then they have so far. Our liberal approaches whilst laudable are being used against us to continue seperation rather then integration like many other areas we need to adapt to the changes in society.

Osem 25-09-2017 07:51
Re: Tory free schools policy results in girls as young as four forced to wear hijabs
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by RizzyKing (Post 35917839)
I know one of my friends pulled his children out of an islamic school prefering to place them in an ordinary school because of ever strictor interpretations of islam. Being honest I don't like faith schools and in this day and age i think we are nearing the point where it might be time to abolish them and all children just go to ordinary schools and it would certainly aid certain groups in society integrating far better then they have so far. Our liberal approaches whilst laudable are being used against us to continue seperation rather then integration like many other areas we need to adapt to the changes in society.
If you run a country in a way which effectively encourages religious and cultural difference it hardly makes for an integrated society. In trying to accommodate everyone and everything they want, we've encouraged separation and removed a very large part of that which would have the opposite effect.

BenMcr 25-09-2017 14:30
Re: Tory free schools policy results in girls as young as four forced to wear hijabs
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDaddy (Post 35917837)
What part of the religion says four year olds have to be covered up?
It doesn't as far as I'm aware. This debate has been going on for a while:
https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...-wearing-hijab

Paul 25-09-2017 18:47
Re: Tory free schools policy results in girls as young as four forced to wear hijabs
 
I'm pretty sure most 4 year olds have always been told what to wear, whats the difference here ?

TheDaddy 25-09-2017 19:46
Re: Tory free schools policy results in girls as young as four forced to wear hijabs
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul M (Post 35917945)
I'm pretty sure most 4 year olds have always been told what to wear, whats the difference here ?
Little thing like the sexualisation of 4 year olds :shrug:

Osem 25-09-2017 20:13
Re: Tory free schools policy results in girls as young as four forced to wear hijabs
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul M (Post 35917945)
I'm pretty sure most 4 year olds have always been told what to wear, whats the difference here ?
Nowadays even 3 year olds are starting to tell their parents what sex they want to be... :spin:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017...as-quadrupled/

BenMcr 25-09-2017 20:17
Re: Tory free schools policy results in girls as young as four forced to wear hijabs
 
That's gender identity which is not actually anything to do with sexuality.

Osem 25-09-2017 20:22
Re: Tory free schools policy results in girls as young as four forced to wear hijabs
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BenMcr (Post 35917963)
That's gender identity which is not actually anything to do with sexuality.
I wasn't suggesting that 3 year olds are demanding sex change operations. It was a just a loose reference to 'sex' in the sense of them identifying with a different one as per the article. Hence boys wanting to wear dresses in school.

1andrew1 25-09-2017 22:29
Re: Tory free schools policy results in girls as young as four forced to wear hijabs
 
Someone posted earlier wanting to understand the link to the current policy on academies and faith schools.
The Government is
1) "continuing to encourage primary and secondary schools to become academies"
2) Some academies - generally underperforming schools that have converted - will have a sponsor. Sponsors come from a wide range of backgrounds including successful schools, businesses, universities, charities and faith bodies."
This continues the policy of the last Government and the Conservative-led coalition.
https://www.gov.uk/government/public...d-free-schools

BenMcr 25-09-2017 23:14
Re: Tory free schools policy results in girls as young as four forced to wear hijabs
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Osem (Post 35917965)
I wasn't suggesting that 3 year olds are demanding sex change operations. It was a just a loose reference to 'sex' in the sense of them identifying with a different one as per the article. Hence boys wanting to wear dresses in school.
Fair enough.

The reason I wanted to make the distinction is that the aim of the covering of the body in Islam is protect your modesty:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religi.../hijab_1.shtml

As far as my understanding goes, that only applies to women (and technically men too) old enough to marry.

So whatever you think of the overall principle or the interpretation of what adults should wear, saying that children need to be modest is where the problem comes. Making them wear the hijab implies when uncovered they are immodest.

pip08456 26-09-2017 00:08
Re: Tory free schools policy results in girls as young as four forced to wear hijabs
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 35917988)
Someone posted earlier wanting to understand the link to the current policy on academies and faith schools.
The Government is
1) "continuing to encourage primary and secondary schools to become academies"
2) Some academies - generally underperforming schools that have converted - will have a sponsor. Sponsors come from a wide range of backgrounds including successful schools, businesses, universities, charities and faith bodies."
This continues the policy of the last Government and the Conservative-led coalition.
https://www.gov.uk/government/public...d-free-schools
Hello Andrew, guess who? Yes I'm the uneducated brexiteer who asked for a link to what you stated was tory party policy and as usual you came up trumps with a link that states nothing of the sort.

Just to refresh your memory here's the post of yours I replied to asking for the link

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 35917834)
Tory party policy is to encourage and state-fund religious schools in preference to council-run schools. Preferably with light-touch, red-tape-free regulation, And this, as the article explains, is one of the consequences.
You don't need to change extremists' views. Just don't hand over tax-payers' money to them.
Now, I'm either more uneducated than I thought or there is no mention of religion anywhere in the link you have supplied which also (my brain's starting to hurt with all this thinking:)) refers to Tory/Lib-Dem coalition policy on more freedom of education.

Would you like to try again?

Paul 26-09-2017 20:15
Re: Tory free schools policy results in girls as young as four forced to wear hijabs
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDaddy (Post 35917955)
Little thing like the sexualisation of 4 year olds :shrug:
WTF has this got to do with "sexualisation of 4 year olds" :confused:

1andrew1 26-09-2017 20:46
Re: Tory free schools policy results in girls as young as four forced to wear hijabs
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by pip08456 (Post 35917998)
Now, I'm either more uneducated than I thought or there is no mention of religion anywhere in the link you have supplied which also (my brain's starting to hurt with all this thinking:)) refers to Tory/Lib-Dem coalition policy on more freedom of education.

Would you like to try again?
Firstly, I don't have an opinion on your education, I'm concerned with raising the debate on the involvement of religious organisations with education.
Secondly, point 2) quoted "faith bodies" from an official Government site. This was the policy of the Tory-led coalition and has been maintained by the current Tory government.

pip08456 26-09-2017 21:19
Re: Tory free schools policy results in girls as young as four forced to wear hijabs
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 35918101)
Firstly, I don't have an opinion on your education, I'm concerned with raising the debate on the involvement of religious organisations with education.
Secondly, point 2) quoted "faith bodies" from an official Government site. This was the policy of the Tory-led coalition and has been maintained by the current Tory government.
State funding of Faith schools was not implemented by either the Tories or the Tory/Lib Dem coalition.

Quote:
Until 1997, the UK funded only Christian or Jewish faith schools (Muslim schools existed but were privately funded), but the 1997–2007 Labour Government expanded this to other religions, and began using the term "faith school"

1andrew1 26-09-2017 21:31
Re: Tory free schools policy results in girls as young as four forced to wear hijabs
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by pip08456 (Post 35918105)
State funding of Faith schools was not implemented by either the Tories or the Tory/Lib Dem coalition.
Agreed but the Conservatives have significantly encouraged non-council schools through funding and enabled council schools to convert to faith schools. I appreciate that this was done with the best of intentions but it has resulted in unintended consequences as I have illustrated with the Evening Standard article.
I'm not against any particular religion, but I think that inadequate regulation has let extremism in and that funding of religious schools should be debated more robustly. All schools should seek to integrate children into society and to understand the country's values.

TheDaddy 27-09-2017 02:22
Re: Tory free schools policy results in girls as young as four forced to wear hijabs
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul M (Post 35918095)
WTF has this got to do with "sexualisation of 4 year olds" :confused:
WTF do you think Muslim women cover up then, perhaps this will help with your confusion

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017...irl-aged-four/

pip08456 27-09-2017 11:15
Re: Tory free schools policy results in girls as young as four forced to wear hijabs
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 35918106)
Agreed but the Conservatives have significantly encouraged non-council schools through funding and enabled council schools to convert to faith schools. I appreciate that this was done with the best of intentions but it has resulted in unintended consequences as I have illustrated with the Evening Standard article.
I'm not against any particular religion, but I think that inadequate regulation has let extremism in and that funding of religious schools should be debated more robustly. All schools should seek to integrate children into society and to understand the country's values.
At least we can agree on something.;)

1andrew1 27-09-2017 22:02
Re: Tory free schools policy results in girls as young as four forced to wear hijabs
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by pip08456 (Post 35918132)
At least we can agree on something.;)
Yay! :)

Gary L 27-09-2017 23:12
Re: Tory free schools policy results in girls as young as four forced to wear hijabs
 
There's a school by me and the parents dressed in normal clothes. mum would even show off her figure and wear tight leather trousers and high heels. dad would wear fashionable jeans and T-shirts.
the three girls would wear girlie clothes.

one day all of a sudden. after a good 2 years of this. mum dressed Muslim and hid her face. dad grew the typical Muslim beard and dark sunglasses?. and the three girls started wearing typical Muslim clothes.

I thought to myself who's had a word with them.

Mr K 28-09-2017 07:16
Re: Tory free schools policy results in girls as young as four forced to wear hijabs
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary L (Post 35918241)
There's a school by me and the parents dressed in normal clothes. mum would even show off her figure and wear tight leather trousers and high heels. dad would wear fashionable jeans and T-shirts.
the three girls would wear girlie clothes.

one day all of a sudden. after a good 2 years of this. mum dressed Muslim and hid her face. dad grew the typical Muslim beard and dark sunglasses?. and the three girls started wearing typical Muslim clothes.

I thought to myself who's had a word with them.
Or maybe it was a completely different family and it's time for specs (e.g a Mum who has a wonderful figure after 3 kids? ;) )

Gary L 28-09-2017 22:36
Re: Tory free schools policy results in girls as young as four forced to wear hijabs
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr K (Post 35918265)
Or maybe it was a completely different family and it's time for specs (e.g a Mum who has a wonderful figure after 3 kids? ;) )

It's definitely her. she still calls me Big Boy when she pops in for 2 minutes Tuesdays and Wednesdays :)


Nah seriously.... :erm:
it's the same family. they just changed overnight.
and she doesn't call me Big Boy. she calls me Mr Gary.

Chris 29-09-2017 13:20
Re: Tory free schools policy results in girls as young as four forced to wear hijabs
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 35917825)
Does this show that education and religion should be separated?

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/educ...-a3642331.html
No, it shows that parents who don't want their kids to wear a hijab shouldn't send them to an Islamic school. :confused:

Ignitionnet 29-09-2017 13:47
Re: Tory free schools policy results in girls as young as four forced to wear hijabs
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 35917825)
Does this show that education and religion should be separated?

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/educ...-a3642331.html
No, there are plenty of other things that show that. Regardless of the reasoning the implicit sexualisation of kids in evidence here is grim.

Anyone who requires a primary school child to dress 'modestly' else they feel attracted to them sexually has problems regardless of whether it's religion or just plain old perversion guiding them.

---------- Post added at 13:47 ---------- Previous post was at 13:45 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris (Post 35918422)
No, it shows that parents who don't want their kids to wear a hijab shouldn't send them to an Islamic school. :confused:
With the pressures on primary school places it's not always that easy. Parents may not have many, if any, options.

Chris 30-09-2017 10:09
Re: Tory free schools policy results in girls as young as four forced to wear hijabs
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ignitionnet (Post 35918429)
With the pressures on primary school places it's not always that easy. Parents may not have many, if any, options.
With this research only identifying three state primary schools 'enforcing' the hijab as part of school uniform, that suggestion is a little wide of the mark. This looks like a storm in a teacup to me, whipped up - oh surprise surprise - by the National Secular Society, with its fairly obvious agenda to remove faith organisations' involvement in the provision of education.


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