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-   -   Chaos in the Commons. Will the Speaker survive? (https://www.cableforum.uk/board/showthread.php?t=33712513)

Sephiroth 23-02-2024 12:00
Re: Chaos in the Commons. Will the Speaker survive?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36170749)
It’s clearly giving Israel cover. Rather than discussing how many of our Parliamentarians are accusing them of collective punishment when they bomb hospitals or have snipers gun down children.

Instead we are discussing some relatively frivolous matter while Labour’s mealy mouthed proposal to semi-justify Israeli alleged war crimes went through on the nod following a Government boycott.

It makes a mockery of the process. Everyone knows it.
For a change, you are wrong, John (and always wrong on your anti-Israel position).

We have been discussing the Israel/Hamas/Gaza situation through and through for the past months. Now that something new has happened, there is a topic on this new event and it is appropriate to discuss this.

Hugh 23-02-2024 12:57
Re: Chaos in the Commons. Will the Speaker survive?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36170747)
What's your alternative suggestion?

I get it, you're disappointed with the MPs - all parties and especially the political games they play for no public benefit. But what can be practically done about it? The whole political system with whips, loyalty, etc is a difficult one to break.

Unless the nasties trying to usurp democracy eventually gain power.


---------- Post added at 09:54 ---------- Previous post was at 09:51 ----------



Correct - apart from the greyed-out phrase. We must keep 7-Oct in mind and also consider what is a proportional response to roasted babies.
Too late - the party that unlawfully prorogued Parliament, imposed Voter ID laws when there was no need just to favour themselves, barred colleges and universities from registering their students to vote, brought in voting for emigrants who don't live in the UK*, taken away the Electoral Commission's independence and ability to prosecute, and extensively uses Henry VIII Statutory Instument powers allow ministers to make changes to not only secondary legislation but also primary legislation (Acts of Parliament), without having to go through the full process that an Act of Parliament would normally require to avoid scrutiny in Parliament, have been in power for 14 years...

*by Statutory Instrument, with no Parliamentary Scrutiny

jfman 23-02-2024 13:00
Re: Chaos in the Commons. Will the Speaker survive?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36170758)
For a change, you are wrong, John (and always wrong on your anti-Israel position).

We have been discussing the Israel/Hamas/Gaza situation through and through for the past months. Now that something new has happened, there is a topic on this new event and it is appropriate to discuss this.
I’m not questioning the appropriateness - I’m here and active.

I’m only positing what would the news headlines have been had Hoyle done his job correctly and (in all likelihood) the SNP motion failed.

It’d have been how many MPs - specifically Labour MPs - backed it.

Some estimates had the number of potential Labour backers at 90. It’d have been how much authority does Starmer have over his party. Is his fence sitting tenable? Etc.

The Speaker handed out a big get out of jail free card, at the expense of the SNP and due process.

Sephiroth 23-02-2024 13:14
Re: Chaos in the Commons. Will the Speaker survive?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 36170769)
Too late - the party that unlawfully prorogued Parliament, imposed Voter ID laws when there was no need just to favour themselves, barred colleges and universities from registering their students to vote, brought in voting for emigrants who don't live in the UK*, taken away the Electoral Commission's independence and ability to prosecute, and extensively uses Henry VIII Statutory Instument powers allow ministers to make changes to not only secondary legislation but also primary legislation (Acts of Parliament), without having to go through the full process that an Act of Parliament would normally require to avoid scrutiny in Parliament, have been in power for 14 years...

*by Statutory Instrument, with no Parliamentary Scrutiny
The Conservatives are not from the culture that has blown us up, murdered our people on the street, wishes Israel to be wiped off the map.



---------- Post added at 13:14 ---------- Previous post was at 13:03 ----------


The Speaker has overstepped the mark and even though there's a mixture of faux outrage and genuine outrage among the MPs, the public must be wondering how hew can retain his impartiality when so blatantly having favoured Labour.

It's a pity.

On my theme, the baying mob outside Parliament, the genocidal message beamed onto Big Ben, the lame police, they are a sign of another culture attacking and gradually destroying our democracy. The Speaker should have focused on that - inhibition of free expression in Parliament.

TheDaddy 23-02-2024 13:16
Re: Chaos in the Commons. Will the Speaker survive?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36170747)
We must keep 7-Oct in mind and also consider what is a proportional response to roasted babies.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36170758)
For a change, you are wrong, John (and always wrong on your anti-Israel position).
:spin: imagine having the front to tell someone they're always wrong and using a proven lie to do it

Sephiroth 23-02-2024 13:19
Re: Chaos in the Commons. Will the Speaker survive?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36170770)
I’m not questioning the appropriateness - I’m here and active.

I’m only positing what would the news headlines have been had Hoyle done his job correctly and (in all likelihood) the SNP motion failed.

It’d have been how many MPs - specifically Labour MPs - backed it.

Some estimates had the number of potential Labour backers at 90. It’d have been how much authority does Starmer have over his party. Is his fence sitting tenable? Etc.

The Speaker handed out a big get out of jail free card, at the expense of the SNP and due process.
The motions were all variants of the same thing. The SNP motion was at the Hamza Yousaf end of the spectrum, the Tory motion was at the diplomacy end of the spectrum and the Labour motion was concocted by the tail wagging the dog ahead of the GE. The Speaker should have allowed due process to bring this fiasco of a motion to a conclusion.

Chris 23-02-2024 14:31
Re: Chaos in the Commons. Will the Speaker survive?
 
Opposition day is rarely about the opposition motion getting carried. Motions presented by minorities are by their nature unlikely to succeed. But that’s not the point of them. They are there to give voice to smaller parties and allow them to choose their topic, state their case and expose what they see as weaknesses in the positions of the other parties. They can do this effectively whether or not they win a vote at the end of it.

The conventions are there to protect that process as a whole and Lindsay Hoyle’s failure to trust processes that are bigger than him has been his undoing. His protestations of good intent don’t really stack up against his refusal to take advice, his refusal to ensure his clerks closely monitored events and advise the deputy speaker as she presided, and his inexcusable failure to be in the chamber while the whole debacle unfolded.

If this had been a momentary brain fart then there were multiple opportunities during the afternoon to change course but he seems to have decided he was bigger than events and wouldn’t be told. The risk that he will do so again when the chips are down rightly causes some MPs to lose confidence in him.

I think he has to go, and within a week he probably will.

jfman 23-02-2024 16:09
Re: Chaos in the Commons. Will the Speaker survive?
 
100% what Chris just said.

mrmistoffelees 23-02-2024 20:21
Re: Chaos in the Commons. Will the Speaker survive?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36170771)
The Conservatives are not from the culture that has blown us up, murdered our people on the street, wishes Israel to be wiped off the map.



---------- Post added at 13:14 ---------- Previous post was at 13:03 ----------


The Speaker has overstepped the mark and even though there's a mixture of faux outrage and genuine outrage among the MPs, the public must be wondering how hew can retain his impartiality when so blatantly having favoured Labour.

It's a pity.

On my theme, the baying mob outside Parliament, the genocidal message beamed onto Big Ben, the lame police, they are a sign of another culture attacking and gradually destroying our democracy. The Speaker should have focused on that - inhibition of free expression in Parliament.
I may be two double gin and tonics deep on a Friday night but your first response reads like you’re justifying the conservatives behaviour by saying that at least they’re not like Hamas

Regardless, I think I need another Gin

Mr K 23-02-2024 20:34
Re: Chaos in the Commons. Will the Speaker survive?
 
The Speaker will survive , regardless of whether he has the job or not, and still be on quite a good salary too.

Meanwhile back in Gaza, innocent people continue to die.
However if political points can be scored in blighty , who cares?

Paul 23-02-2024 20:46
Re: Chaos in the Commons. Will the Speaker survive?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr K (Post 36170801)
The Speaker will survive , regardless of whether he has the job or not, and still be on quite a good salary too.

Meanwhile back in Gaza, innocent people continue to die.
However if political points can be scored in blighty , who cares?
Innocent people continue to die in this country as well.
Three children murdered the other day, but yes, everyone would rather argue about politics. :(

Sephiroth 24-02-2024 10:04
Re: Chaos in the Commons. Will the Speaker survive?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees (Post 36170797)
I may be two double gin and tonics deep on a Friday night but your first response reads like you’re justifying the conservatives behaviour by saying that at least they’re not like Hamas

Regardless, I think I need another Gin
Er, what? I wrote:

Quote:
The Conservatives are not from the culture that has blown us up, murdered our people on the street, wishes Israel to be wiped off the map.
There is a major difference between political parties, including both Labour & Conservative, who deploy stupid tricks that are not in the spirit of democracy and a cultural group who are obviously trying to take over our democracy, by degrees and then - the end of democracy.

The Speaker bowed to the baying mob, imo.

jfman 24-02-2024 10:11
Re: Chaos in the Commons. Will the Speaker survive?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36170828)
The Speaker bowed to the baying mob, imo.
There was no mob. There was Starmer.

Any suggestions of threats to safety came much, much later. There was no indication in his first statement, nor in correspondence from the clerk to indicate he had raised it with them.

He’s made a mess of it and blamed brown people. A tried and tested trope for the British establishment to deploy.

1andrew1 24-02-2024 14:29
Re: Chaos in the Commons. Will the Speaker survive?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36170828)

The Speaker bowed to the baying mob, imo
He bowed to the baying Starmer and was given a means of escape but did not take it. His authority in the House is reduced and I'm amazed he's still in place.

jfman 24-02-2024 14:34
Re: Chaos in the Commons. Will the Speaker survive?
 
The more I think about it he will try to stumble into the next election and Sir Keir hands him a peerage for a job well done.

Grubby.


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