Cable Forum
Page 3 of 11 12 3 4567 Last »
Show 100 post(s) from this thread on one page

Cable Forum (https://www.cableforum.uk/board/index.php)
-   Current Affairs (https://www.cableforum.uk/board/forumdisplay.php?f=20)
-   -   Child grooming gang found guilty (https://www.cableforum.uk/board/showthread.php?t=33687539)

Sirius 19-05-2012 17:13
Re: Child grooming gang found guilty
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by martyh (Post 35430316)
For the police hierarchy and government to admit this was a racial problem would be to admit that their policies on immigration and racial integration are not working
And they would be correct

RizzyKing 19-05-2012 22:59
Re: Child grooming gang found guilty
 
Maggy no one has said that taking a racial motive into account makes the crime more or less serious but if race is a factor in the commission of a crime it should be treated the same as all other factors. Sorry but if this had been a bunch of white men praying on Asian girls you can bet everyone would be talking about a racial side to the case. In that regard we do have a two tiered system and it is disgusting. My ideal world would be one where we all see each other as people and not a skin colour, religion or culture but we don't so can the law at least be even in it's handling of these things rather then perpetuate the idiocy that racism is only the preserve of white against all others .

Julian 21-06-2012 18:44
Re: Child grooming gang found guilty
 
And the other ******* is now named.

LINK

Yet more offences, throw away the key!! :mad:

Osem 21-06-2012 20:31
Re: Child grooming gang found guilty
 
Ditto that. Despicable monster!

Russ 21-06-2012 20:41
Re: Child grooming gang found guilty
 
Another Asian man. What a shocker.

Gary L 21-06-2012 21:01
Re: Child grooming gang found guilty
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Russ (Post 35444774)
Another Asian man. What a shocker.
What do you mean, Russ?

Russ 21-06-2012 21:04
Re: Child grooming gang found guilty
 
I mean another Asian man found guilty connected to this gang does not surprise me.

Gary L 21-06-2012 21:09
Re: Child grooming gang found guilty
 
Ok.
well to be honest I wasn't expecting a non Asian man to be connected with it all.

Saaf_laandon_mo 22-06-2012 15:12
Re: Child grooming gang found guilty
 
Interestingly enough no one has pointed out that the last victim of this gang to come forward (ii.e. the 17 year old that Khan systematically raped) and who's evidence was instrumental in sentencing him, is in fact Asian. Kind of blows the argument that this Pakistani gang only preyed on white girls and were racially motivated slightly out of the water does it not?

As I said before - gangs like this prey on vunerable people. I expect there will have been other girls who have not come forward - who will not just be from white backgrounds.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...onviction.html

---------- Post added at 15:12 ---------- Previous post was at 15:09 ----------

Russ 22-06-2012 15:14
Re: Child grooming gang found guilty
 
Do you not accept there was not at least an element of race in this considering none of the gang members were white?

Saaf_laandon_mo 22-06-2012 15:25
Re: Child grooming gang found guilty
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Russ (Post 35445022)
Do you not accept there was not at least an element of race in this considering none of the gang members were white?
The original feelings and arguments was that this had to be a race crime because all the victims were white. I'm simply pointing out that it has now been proven that not all the victims were white. My argument all along has been that these *******s preyed on vunerable girls.

Yes all the gang members were asian (from similar if not the same community background) but I do not think they were racially motivated in their choice of targets. I would say that they probably white girls (or non asian girls) were seen as an easier target because they could be exploited with drink, drugs, or because they came from worse backgrounds. Rochdale has a big asian population that is mainly muslim so maybe they were less vunerable to be exploited by alcohol and drugs. This is slightly different from picking girls simply because they were white.

I also do not think that this asian victim is the only asian girl they raped. I think others will not come out due to the cultural pressures that they might feel they will be under.

nomadking 22-06-2012 15:28
Re: Child grooming gang found guilty
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Saaf_laandon_mo (Post 35445019)
Interestingly enough no one has pointed out that the last victim of this gang to come forward (ii.e. the 17 year old that Khan systematically raped) and who's evidence was instrumental in sentencing him, is in fact Asian. Kind of blows the argument that this Pakistani gang only preyed on white girls and were racially motivated slightly out of the water does it not?

As I said before - gangs like this prey on vunerable people. I expect there will have been other girls who have not come forward - who will not just be from white backgrounds.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...onviction.html

---------- Post added at 15:12 ---------- Previous post was at 15:09 ----------
The reason it was a separate trial was that the victim was not connected to the grooming gang activity, it was all down to him alone. Your argument is therefore, of course, false. The grooming victims still don't appear to include any Asians. The Asian victim wasn't raped by the others, but by just this one person.
Quote:
Yesterday the court in the new case heard he repeatedly raped and sexually abused a young Asian girl for more than a decade, treating her as a 'possession' to use for his own sexual gratification.


Russ 22-06-2012 15:33
Re: Child grooming gang found guilty
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Saaf_laandon_mo (Post 35445025)
The original feelings and arguments was that this had to be a race crime because all the victims were white. I'm simply pointing out that it has now been proven that not all the victims were white. My argument all along has been that these *******s preyed on vunerable girls.

Yes all the gang members were asian (from similar if not the same community background) but I do not think they were racially motivated in their choice of targets. I would say that they probably white girls (or non asian girls) were seen as an easier target because they could be exploited with drink, drugs, or because they came from worse backgrounds. Rochdale has a big asian population that is mainly muslim so maybe they were less vunerable to be exploited by alcohol and drugs. This is slightly different from picking girls simply because they were white.

I also do not think that this asian victim is the only asian girl they raped. I think others will not come out due to the cultural pressures that they might feel they will be under.
I come from the angle of it was clearly a race-related crime as all the men were Asian. Actually I could be wrong, I think perhaps one or two were Iraqi/Saudi or something? Either way none of the men were white.

Now obviously I'm not stupid enough to suggest that white-British men do not commit these types of crimes.

But in this case, it cannot be denied that the police have not charged any white-British men with anything. There must be a reason why they kept it within their own races. On this basis I say race played a massive part in the case.

Saaf_laandon_mo 22-06-2012 15:35
Re: Child grooming gang found guilty
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nomadking (Post 35445027)
The reason it was a separate trial was that the victim was not connected to the grooming gang activity, it was all down to him alone. Your argument is therefore, of course, false. The grooming victims still don't appear to include any Asians. The Asian victim wasn't raped by the others, but by just this one person.
I'd argue that the reason it was a separate trial is because as far as I am aware, the victim came forward after the grooming trial. Similarly if a girl came forward now in relation to the grooming case it would be a spearate trial.

Are you saying that no more victims of the original grooming trial exist? And if they come forward they wont be treated as new trials?

Raaping someone for almost 15 years has quite a strong indication of grooming does it not? He also let other people have sex with her/forced her to have sex with other people.

Gary L 22-06-2012 15:36
Re: Child grooming gang found guilty
 
That's what I was going to point out nomad :tu:

and why weren't there any white men in their gang?

Saaf_laandon_mo 22-06-2012 15:42
Re: Child grooming gang found guilty
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Russ (Post 35445030)
I come from the angle of it was clearly a race-related crime as all the men were Asian. Actually I could be wrong, I think perhaps one or two were Iraqi/Saudi or something? Either way none of the men were white.

Now obviously I'm not stupid enough to suggest that white-British men do not commit these types of crimes.

But in this case, it cannot be denied that the police have no charged any white-British men with anything. There must be a reason why they kept it within their own races. On this basis I say race played a massive part in the case.
If all of the victims were white, then you could have an argument. The facts are we don't know if all of the victims were white as there could be a lot that haven't come forward. My understanding of a racially motivate crime is that the victim is off a different race. In this case we know that the ring lleader has raped/groomed girls both white and asian - so I can't see him purely motivated by race.

I think there will be asian girls who have been raped by these guys, as there will be many other white girls who have still not come forward. What I think needs to be done is the stigma associated with rape needs to be addressed in asian communities. It happens - rape is not only carried out on english white girls, and the sooner and their respective communities accept this then we will be seeing more asians behind bars for rape.

Russ 22-06-2012 15:46
Re: Child grooming gang found guilty
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Saaf_laandon_mo (Post 35445040)
If all of the victims were white, then you could have an argument. The facts are we don't know if all of the victims were white as there could be a lot that haven't come forward. My understanding of a racially motivate crime is that the victim is off a different race. In this case we know that the ring lleader has raped/groomed girls both white and asian - so I can't see him purely motivated by race.
You're missing my point. I'm not calling this a 'racially motivated crime'. I'm suggesting there must be a racial element involved if all the members are Asian. There surely must be a reason why no white men were part of that gang. I say it's based on race - mainly because nobody else seems able to offer an alternative.

nomadking 22-06-2012 15:47
Re: Child grooming gang found guilty
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Saaf_laandon_mo (Post 35445032)
I'd argue that the reason it was a separate trial is because as far as I am aware, the victim came forward after the grooming trial. Similarly if a girl came forward now in relation to the grooming case it would be a spearate trial.

Are you saying that no more victims of the original grooming trial exist? And if they come forward they wont be treated as new trials?

Raaping someone for almost 15 years has quite a strong indication of grooming does it not? He also let other people have sex with her/forced her to have sex with other people.
Where does it say that? He was the only one charged with raping her. She told the police after the grooming investigation started, not after the trial started.
Quote:
"We already knew Ahmed was an integral part of the Rochdale grooming case - now we can also say his horrific campaign of abuse began many years ago with the systematic rape of this one victim," she said.
How would things like alcohol feature in a girl that young.
Quote:
She said she couldn't remember how old she was the first time Ahmed raped her, but she knew she was so young she still had to stand on a chair to reach the sink.
Quote:
He told the jury that fellow Pakistanis would regard him as having “infested” their community by sleeping with a white girl. “It’s not just them who are racist. We are racist too”.
Quote:
Ahmed blamed the white community for allowing teenage girls to go around unsupervised, so that at a young age they were “trained” in both sex and drinking.

Osem 22-06-2012 15:55
Re: Child grooming gang found guilty
 
I wonder what the wider Asian community would've concluded had an entirely white gang been convicted of grooming and raping an exclusively Asian group of young girls.

I don't think this was an entirely racially motivated crime any more than I think all Pakistani men (or men of any other nationality for that matter) are abusers and/or paedophiles but for me there's no doubt that rthe acial element in this crime was overhwleming. That of course doesn't exclude the possibility that some of these men were also involved in other cases of abuse for other reasons and involving their own communities.

Saaf_laandon_mo 22-06-2012 16:11
Re: Child grooming gang found guilty
 
Interestingly enough a lot of the girls that were raped were 'supplied' by one of the victims who was now getting paid a finders fee for each girl she bought back to the gang.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...-unfolded.html

Meanwhile Honey Monster was busily at work finding a steady supply of other girls for the gang to rape, in return for a finder's fee of up to £200 per girl.
One of the abusers, Abdul Rauf, 43, once told her not to take a "little" girl because she was too young, but Honey Monster ignored him, saying another girl had moved away and "the men wanted new girls".
She would later escape prosecution because she, too, had been abused and was seen as a victim who had lost all sense of right and wrong.

This could also be seen as a reason to why the victims were white - she would have probably been going to her own commuinty first and foremost, talking to girls she new and assocaited wth.

My argument is that everything should be taken into account before saying that this case is all about race. It's not - it's about the exploitation of vunerable girls/women. The fact that all the ones that have come forward are white does not mean that these guys did not rape asian girls either. It's more than likely that they have got away with that because of the stigmas and cultural pressures I spoke of earlier.

Russ 22-06-2012 17:00
Re: Child grooming gang found guilty
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Saaf_laandon_mo (Post 35445069)
My argument is that everything should be taken into account before saying that this case is all about race. It's not - it's about the exploitation of vunerable girls/women. The fact that all the ones that have come forward are white does not mean that these guys did not rape asian girls either. It's more than likely that they have got away with that because of the stigmas and cultural pressures I spoke of earlier.
Does that include the fact that all the men were Asian?

Damien 22-06-2012 17:09
Re: Child grooming gang found guilty
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Russ (Post 35445046)
You're missing my point. I'm not calling this a 'racially motivated crime'. I'm suggesting there must be a racial element involved if all the members are Asian. There surely must be a reason why no white men were part of that gang. I say it's based on race - mainly because nobody else seems able to offer an alternative.
But sometimes all the people in a case are white, doesn't mean there is a racial element. It's just that these people clearly kept within their circle and there circle came from the same community.

martyh 22-06-2012 17:10
Re: Child grooming gang found guilty
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Saaf_laandon_mo (Post 35445025)
The original feelings and arguments was that this had to be a race crime because all the victims were white.
ERM no ,the reason it is widely reported as a race crime is because the defendants said it was motivated by race both to the police upon arrest and the judge during the trial.The judge may think different but i tend to believe the defendants when they say it was racially motivated .

Russ 22-06-2012 17:14
Re: Child grooming gang found guilty
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien (Post 35445096)
But sometimes all the people in a case are white, doesn't mean there is a racial element. It's just that these people clearly kept within their circle and there circle came from the same community.
However in this case all the men were Asian. If they chose to keep it within their own community then a) they created the racial element by doing so and b) questions need to be asked as to why others in that community did not take action sooner.

Damien 22-06-2012 17:14
Re: Child grooming gang found guilty
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by martyh (Post 35445097)
ERM no ,the reason it is widely reported as a race crime is because the defendants said it was motivated by race both to the police upon arrest and the judge during the trial.The judge may think different but i tend to believe the defendants when they say it was racially motivated .
It was reported as a racial crime because it seemed to be an entirely Asian gang focusing on white girls. There is now evidence that partly explains that, one of the victims was finding other girls, and a victim came forward that was Asian.

I am not saying there were no issues within the respective communities but that's different to race.

Russ 22-06-2012 17:16
Re: Child grooming gang found guilty
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien (Post 35445103)

I am not saying there were no issues within the respective communities but that's different to race.
On a technicality perhaps but what is it that separates most communities these days?

Damien 22-06-2012 17:18
Re: Child grooming gang found guilty
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Russ (Post 35445102)
However in this case all the men were Asian. If they chose to keep it within their own community then a) they created the racial element by doing so and b) questions need to be asked as to why others in that community did not take action sooner.
Yes but in other cases the defendants are entirely white. We don't say there is a racial element to it. I think the reason they are all Asian is because they all knew each other and people tend to draw their circle of friends from the community they reside in. Asians tend to have vastly more Asian friends than a white person does.

That isn't to say that there are not problems within the Asian community about this issue, either a reluctance to confront/acknowledge it, a disrespect towards women, or they don't take sexual crimes seriously. This is all different to a 'race' crime. It's about community and culture not race.

Saaf_laandon_mo 22-06-2012 17:18
Re: Child grooming gang found guilty
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Russ (Post 35445093)
Does that include the fact that all the men were Asian?

Russ - if all the men were asian and they had been exclusively sounding/seeking out and raping white girls only then you would havesome form of an argument.

What we do know is that a lot of the victims were not sounded out by the gang members themselves. The girl known has Honey Monster, see link in previous post, is white. She had a prominent role in bringing girls to the gang members. Now we don't now if they forced her to bring white girls only - what I would guess is that it was probably easier for her to bring white girls to the gang members than to bring asian ones.

We also know that the gang leader got convicted for raping/grooming a asian girl from a very young age - so this shows he did not exclusively target white girls for rape (whether they are part of this case or another).

We donot know the extent of how many victims they raped. I am pretty certain that not all victims have come forward and I am pretty certain that there are asian girls that have been raped too.

Therefore I would say that people who are saying it is purely/significantly racially motivated havent looked at all the facts.

Ok - let us assume all the girls that these girls have raped have come forward and they are all white. Would the fact that a lot were 'recruited' by a white girl indicate there is more than just asian guys sounding out white girls. And if the argument is that she was told to bring back ceratin girls only, they already rejected one for being too young.

Damien 22-06-2012 17:21
Re: Child grooming gang found guilty
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Russ (Post 35445104)
On a technicality perhaps but what is it that separates most communities these days?
There is a difference between race and culture. Focusing on race misses this important distinction.

So I am saying that the discussion should centre on the culture these men came from. It's important because other races could come from that culture and not all Asians are part of the same culture. That's if this was a culture issue at all. It should just be a standard bunch of sex offenders.

Saaf_laandon_mo 22-06-2012 17:22
Re: Child grooming gang found guilty
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien (Post 35445105)
Yes but in other cases the defendants are entirely white. We don't say there is a racial element to it. I think the reason they are all Asian is because they all knew each other and people tend to draw their circle of friends from the community they reside in. Asians tend to have vastly more Asian friends than a white person does.

That isn't to say that there are not problems within the Asian community about this issue, either a reluctance to confront/acknowledge it, a disrespect towards women, or they don't take sexual crimes seriously. This is all different to a 'race' crime. It's about community and culture not race.
Point well made Damien.

No one is denying that this happens in the asian community.

What I would like to see is more asian women coming forward when raped. There is a huge cultural issue that would make a woman think coming out and saying she is raped is worse than staying quiet about it. It's the same with domestic violence.

I hope that more victims do come out - it must be terrible to suffer rape, and even more so when you feel that you will be 'tarnished' because you have been raped.

Russ 22-06-2012 17:25
Re: Child grooming gang found guilty
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Saaf_laandon_mo (Post 35445106)
Russ - if all the men were asian and they had been exclusively sounding/seeking out and raping white girls only then you would havesome form of an argument.
Tell me what you think my argument is.

---------- Post added at 17:25 ---------- Previous post was at 17:22 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien (Post 35445105)
Yes but in other cases the defendants are entirely white. We don't say there is a racial element to it. I think the reason they are all Asian is because they all knew each other and people tend to draw their circle of friends from the community they reside in. Asians tend to have vastly more Asian friends than a white person does.
Agaian, I'm not talking about 'other' cases. I'm talking about this one. If the men involved chose to keep it to within their community then it was they who chose to create the racial element.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien (Post 35445105)
That isn't to say that there are not problems within the Asian community about this issue, either a reluctance to confront/acknowledge it, a disrespect towards women, or they don't take sexual crimes seriously. This is all different to a 'race' crime. It's about community and culture not race.
I've not said this was a 'race crime'.

martyh 22-06-2012 17:25
Re: Child grooming gang found guilty
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien (Post 35445103)
It was reported as a racial crime because it seemed to be an entirely Asian gang focusing on white girls. There is now evidence that partly explains that, one of the victims was finding other girls, and a victim came forward that was Asian.

I am not saying there were no issues within the respective communities but that's different to race.
I don't get it ,if the defendants said it was racially motivated why is everyone sticking their fingers in their ears and going "la la la can't here you it wasn't racially motivated "

Saaf_laandon_mo 22-06-2012 17:26
Re: Child grooming gang found guilty
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Russ (Post 35445111)
Tell me what you think my argument is.
From what I've read of your posts - your argument comes across that this is racially motivated because all the perpertrators are asian.

If that's not the case then you need to clarify what your argument is.

Damien 22-06-2012 17:28
Re: Child grooming gang found guilty
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by martyh (Post 35445115)
I don't get it ,if the defendants said it was racially motivated why is everyone sticking their fingers in their ears and going "la la la can't here you it wasn't racially motivated "
I would need to see what exactly the defendants said. Did they mean they only wanted white girls or was it an issue with where these girls came from? As pointed out there was a victim who wasn't white.

I still think this is more about culture and community than race.

Russ 22-06-2012 17:30
Re: Child grooming gang found guilty
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Saaf_laandon_mo (Post 35445110)
Point well made Damien.

No one is denying that this happens in the asian community.
And nobody is saying it is exclusive to the Asian community. However as a side note, do we get news reports of gangs of white men raping women? I'm not saying it doesn't happen but it does seem conspicuous by its absence in any news reports.

---------- Post added at 17:30 ---------- Previous post was at 17:28 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Saaf_laandon_mo (Post 35445118)
From what I've read of your posts - your argument comes across that this is racially motivated because all the perpertrators are asian.

If that's not the case then you need to clarify what your argument is.
Not once have I said it is racially motivated nor have I given the impression that it's what I think.

What I have said numerous times is that there is a racial element to it.

Gary L 22-06-2012 17:31
Re: Child grooming gang found guilty
 
Because we don't want to believe it. incase there's any trouble.

we love hearing it when it's the other way around. because some of us like to stand up and say that's disgusting and I want to assure you that I am truly sickened to be of the same colour as those animals, and I am your bestest friend.

---------- Post added at 17:31 ---------- Previous post was at 17:30 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Saaf_laandon_mo (Post 35445118)
From what I've read of your posts - your argument comes across that this is racially motivated because all the perpertrators are asian.

If that's not the case then you need to clarify what your argument is.
Racially motivated?

Damien 22-06-2012 17:32
Re: Child grooming gang found guilty
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Russ (Post 35445121)
And nobody is saying it is exclusive to the Asian community. However as a side note, do we get news reports of gangs of white men raping women? I'm not saying it doesn't happen but it does seem conspicuous by its absence in any news reports.
Well of course we do. It's just in those cases their race never comes up as an issue. You rarely ever see 'white man' as a key part of a story because 90% of this country is white. You get paedophiles who are old white men, remember that woman and man from about a year ago? The woman was a nursery teacher? They were both white.

---------- Post added at 17:32 ---------- Previous post was at 17:31 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Russ (Post 35445121)
What I have said numerous times is that there is a racial element to it.
And I am saying there is a cultural element to it. There are Asians who exist outside of this culture therefore the race part has nothing to do with it.

Russ 22-06-2012 17:35
Re: Child grooming gang found guilty
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien (Post 35445126)
Well of course we do. It's just in those cases their race never comes up as an issue. You rarely ever see 'white man' as a key part of a story because 90% of this country is white. You get paedophiles who are old white men, remember that woman and man from about a year ago? The woman was a nursery teacher? They were both white.
There's a difference between a gang of men (the police have said they believe there are more involved) and a pair of sick idiots.

You say 'of course we do' - if you can show me some headlines where a gang of white men have groomed and raped women I'd be very interested to see it.

I don't know if it's a fact but it certainly seems like paedophile gangs are mainly made up of white men - perhaps there's an element of race there.

My point is people should not be afraid of making a racial connection, as seems to be the case in this thread.

Gary L 22-06-2012 17:36
Re: Child grooming gang found guilty
 
I don't understand your use of the term 'cultural' damien?

it's a culture thing as to why they did it?

why are you dismissing race completely. assuming that the use of the word race in this example is black v brown v white?

Russ 22-06-2012 17:36
Re: Child grooming gang found guilty
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien (Post 35445126)
And I am saying there is a cultural element to it. There are Asians who exist outside of this culture therefore the race part has nothing to do with it.
As someone who I'm sure you'll be aware has spent time in and around that culture, I can say the line is a very thin and blurred one in the majority of situations.

Saaf_laandon_mo 22-06-2012 17:38
Re: Child grooming gang found guilty
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien (Post 35445126)
Well of course we do. It's just in those cases their race never comes up as an issue. You rarely ever see 'white man' as a key part of a story because 90% of this country is white. You get paedophiles who are old white men, remember that woman and man from about a year ago? The woman was a nursery teacher? They were both white.

---------- Post added at 17:32 ---------- Previous post was at 17:31 ----------



And I am saying there is a cultural element to it. There are Asians who exist outside of this culture therefore the race part has nothing to do with it.
Indeed - I didn't hear anyone claiming there is a racial element when this happened. Most paedophile rings that have been found guilty of storing pics/ abusing kids in recent times have been all white - again, no mention or analysis or racial elements.

I would have liked to rep you for your recent posts on the thread Damien but unfortunately I need to spread the love!

Russ 22-06-2012 18:28
Re: Child grooming gang found guilty
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Saaf_laandon_mo (Post 35445137)
Indeed - I didn't hear anyone claiming there is a racial element when this happened. Most paedophile rings that have been found guilty of storing pics/ abusing kids in recent times have been all white - again, no mention or analysis or racial elements.
I've mentioned it.

Osem 22-06-2012 19:48
Re: Child grooming gang found guilty
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Saaf_laandon_mo (Post 35445137)
Indeed - I didn't hear anyone claiming there is a racial element when this happened. Most paedophile rings that have been found guilty of storing pics/ abusing kids in recent times have been all white - again, no mention or analysis or racial elements.
I would have liked to rep you for your recent posts on the thread Damien but unfortunately I need to spread the love!
True and if their 'victims' had all been non white there would have been very loud shouts of racism. However, the perpetrators would've been no more represenative of their race/nationality/culture/religion as a whole than the guys involved in this case were.

Hom3r 22-06-2012 21:54
Re: Child grooming gang found guilty
 
People that do this sicken act deserve one of two things.

1. Locked up and released in a box.
2. The same treatment that a father did to the guy who he caught raping his 5 year old daughter

Damien 02-08-2012 09:31
Re: Child grooming gang found guilty
 
A good article in The Guardian after a similar case in which a predominately white gang groomed and sexually abused children, a case which got no where near the same level of press coverage as the Asian gang did.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisf...ism-takes-root

Quote:
By now surely everyone knows the case of the eight men convicted of picking vulnerable underage girls off the streets, then plying them with drink and drugs before having sex with them. A shocking story. But maybe you haven't heard. Because these sex assaults did not take place in Rochdale, where a similar story led the news for days in May, but in Derby earlier this month. Fifteen girls aged 13 to 15, many of them in care, were preyed on by the men. And though they were not working as a gang, their methods were similar – often targeting children in care and luring them with, among other things, cuddly toys. But this time, of the eight predators, seven were white, not Asian. And the story made barely a ripple in the national media.

Russ 02-08-2012 09:51
Re: Child grooming gang found guilty
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien (Post 35458813)
A good article in The Guardian after a similar case in which a predominately white gang groomed and sexually abused children, a case which got no where near the same level of press coverage as the Asian gang did.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisf...ism-takes-root
It doesn't make the crimes any different but that's not really a fair comparison. In the Rochdale case the victims were all/in high majority white. That is what made the crime feel more racially-based.

Damien 02-08-2012 10:14
Re: Child grooming gang found guilty
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Russ (Post 35458821)
It doesn't make the crimes any different but that's not really a fair comparison. In the Rochdale case the victims were all/in high majority white. That is what made the crime feel more racially-based.
The point is that this Asian story dominated the news and has spawned a topic of 17 pages whereas a similar story involved a white gang has gone by with little mention or mention of their race.

Russ 02-08-2012 10:16
Re: Child grooming gang found guilty
 
If the victims in this newer case were non-white then I think the response would have been massively different, with Diane Abbot leading the charge.

Damien 02-08-2012 10:22
Re: Child grooming gang found guilty
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Russ (Post 35458832)
If the victims in this newer case were non-white then I think the response would have been massively different, with Diane Abbot leading the charge.
This has nothing to do with race, both Asian and White men exploited white children. So why was race brought into it at all in the original case.

Russ 02-08-2012 10:32
Re: Child grooming gang found guilty
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien (Post 35458835)
This has nothing to do with race, both Asian and White men exploited white children. So why was race brought into it at all in the original case.
In the Rochdale case, a group of vastly predominant Asian men groomed predominantly white girls.

In this new case, a gang made up of mostly white men groomed white girls.

Can you really not see how people make a racial distinction (justified or not)?

Damien 02-08-2012 10:40
Re: Child grooming gang found guilty
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Russ (Post 35458837)
In the Rochdale case, a group of vastly predominant Asian men groomed predominantly white girls.

In this new case, a gang made up of mostly white men groomed white girls.

Can you really not see how people make a racial distinction (justified or not)?
Other than the fact the men were Asian, no. I don't think it's the same as a hate crime, and if the girls were targeted because they were white then the same is true of the white men. I suspect they were targeted because they were vulnerable children and the men in question were paedophiles and race is a incidental part of the case.

Pierre 02-08-2012 10:42
Re: Child grooming gang found guilty
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien (Post 35458813)
A good article in The Guardian after a similar case in which a predominately white gang groomed and sexually abused children, a case which got no where near the same level of press coverage as the Asian gang did.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisf...ism-takes-root
Your whole argument is flawed from the outset.

From the quote you posted

Quote:
And though they were not working as a gang
What we have here is a story of several paedos that were grooming girls individually, they were not a gang and not working as such.

I'm pretty sure you could go to the courts in any city in the land and pull out several white paedos that are working individually.

The reason the Rochdale story was a story is because they were an organised gang, these guys in Derby weren't they probably don't even know each other.

Your point and the story in the Guardian is a nonsense.

Osem 02-08-2012 10:46
Re: Child grooming gang found guilty
 
What he said. :tu:

Russ 02-08-2012 10:48
Re: Child grooming gang found guilty
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien (Post 35458839)
Other than the fact the men were Asian, no. I don't think it's the same as a hate crime, and if the girls were targeted because they were white then the same is true of the white men. I suspect they were targeted because they were vulnerable children and the men in question were paedophiles and race is a incidental part of the case.
I can't believe you're not seeing this.

If a group of white men went out and beat up a gang on Asians I can't see how people could fail to call it a racially motivated attack.

If a group of Asian beat up a gang of whites, it would be the same.

The analogy here is if a gang of white men beat up a gang of other white people, would it make headlines with suggestions of racism? Of course not, and rightly so.

Damien 02-08-2012 10:51
Re: Child grooming gang found guilty
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 35458840)
The reason the Rochdale story was a story is because they were an organised gang, these guys in Derby weren't they probably don't even know each other.

Your point and the story in the Guardian is a nonsense.
The article has other examples of white paedophiles rings where race isn't brought into the issue: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cornwall-11821933. It's not uncommon for paedophile rings to be smashed. Why is it that the fact they were white is never brought into it but it plays a key part when they are not?

Russ 02-08-2012 10:53
Re: Child grooming gang found guilty
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien (Post 35458848)
The article has other examples of white paedophiles rings where race isn't brought into the issue: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cornwall-11821933.
Were the victims non-white? If not then it should be obvious why race didn't play a part.

Damien 02-08-2012 10:54
Re: Child grooming gang found guilty
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Russ (Post 35458845)
I can't believe you're not seeing this.

If a group of white men went out and beat up a gang on Asians I can't see how people could fail to call it a racially motivated attack.

If a group of Asian beat up a gang of whites, it would be the same.

The analogy here is if a gang of white men beat up a gang of other white people, would it make headlines with suggestions of racism? Of course not, and rightly so.
Because the analogy doesn't hold up. The motivations are different. If a gang goes a beats someone else up because of their race alone then that's clearly motivated by hatred. Are you saying these people were motivated by their hatred of white girls and not paedophilia? I think their attraction to children was their motivation not the race of those children.

---------- Post added at 10:54 ---------- Previous post was at 10:53 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Russ (Post 35458851)
Were the victims non-white? If not then it should be obvious why race didn't play a part.
Not every case of crimes between races are race crimes.

Russ 02-08-2012 10:56
Re: Child grooming gang found guilty
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien (Post 35458852)
Because the analogy doesn't hold up. The motivations are different. If a gang goes a beats someone else up because of their race alone then that's clearly motivated by hatred. Are you saying these people were motivated by their hatred of white girls and not paedophilia? I think their attraction to children was their motivation not the race of those children.
If all the victims are white then it's not too difficult to assume that's why they chose them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien (Post 35458852)
Not every case of crimes between races are race crimes.
It seems that way when the victims are not white/British. In the example you gave there should be no reason why that case was reported any differently to any other paedophile gang crime.

Pierre 02-08-2012 10:56
Re: Child grooming gang found guilty
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien (Post 35458830)
The point is that this Asian story dominated the news and has spawned a topic of 17 pages whereas a similar story involved a white gang has gone by with little mention or mention of their race.
That's because it's not a similar story,

It's funny that people see what they want to see.

Damien 02-08-2012 11:03
Re: Child grooming gang found guilty
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Russ (Post 35458856)
If all the victims are white then it's not too difficult to assume that's why they chose them.
The victims were all white in the other case as well. There are a lot of white people around. Even so the constant in all these cases are the victims race and not the accused races. The intense focus on the race of the accused in the Rochdale case where other cases their race gets little or no mention is worth questioning rather than dismissing out of hand. There may be, as I said before, a cultural element in some communities that means those communities have higher rates of these cases however that's quite a complex question.

Quote:
It seems that way when the victims are not white/British.
It may seem that way. Either way that doesn't mean we should redress the balance by doing the same when the victims are white.

---------- Post added at 11:03 ---------- Previous post was at 11:02 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 35458858)
That's because it's not a similar story,

It's funny that people see what they want to see.
If the story was that they were simply a gang why did their race play such a big part and why didn't it play a part in all the other paedophile rings?

Russ 02-08-2012 11:05
Re: Child grooming gang found guilty
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien (Post 35458862)
The victims were all white in the other case as well. There are a lot of white people around. Even so the constant in all these cases are the victims race and not the accused races. The intense focus on the race of the accused in the Rochdale case where other cases their race gets little or no mention is worth questioning rather than dismissing out of hand. There may be, as I said before, a cultural element in some communities that means those communities have higher rates of these cases however that's quite a complex question.
They were a gang of Asian or non-white men. Of all the victims they could have chosen, they went for white girls.

If you cannot see a racial connection there then I'm baffled.

Damien 02-08-2012 11:09
Re: Child grooming gang found guilty
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Russ (Post 35458864)
They were a gang of Asian or non-white men. Of all the victims they could have chosen, they went for white girls.

If you cannot see a racial connection there then I'm baffled.
I don't see the point. Is it because white girls where more at risk or because of some hatred of white people? If it's the former it's got nothing to do with the race of the accusers.

That said I think that might be going back over old ground. I guess the crucial question is if the race of the accusers warranted the extra media coverage it got as a result or not.

Pierre 02-08-2012 11:09
Re: Child grooming gang found guilty
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien (Post 35458848)
The article has other examples of white paedophiles rings where race isn't brought into the issue: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cornwall-11821933. It's not uncommon for paedophile rings to be smashed. Why is it that the fact they were white is never brought into it but it plays a key part when they are not?
OK, moving away from the non-existent paedophile gang in Derby abusing teenage girls.....


If you want talk about why that incident in Rochdale got all of the press coverage?

Because it was a good story.

It's an unfortunate fact that children go missing all the time, never to return. Why did Madeline McCann get so much press coverage?

Because it was a good story.

10's if not 100's of kids get stabbed and killed each year, who decides whihc ones get the press coverage?

It's all to do with the story,

The fact the gang in Rochdale were Asian, is a story, the age of the girls they were grooming, the colour of the girls they were grooming, the friction it caused between the communities and the reaction it caused.

like it or not it made good story.

Russ 02-08-2012 11:11
Re: Child grooming gang found guilty
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien (Post 35458865)
I don't see the point. Is it because white girls where more at risk or because of some hatred of white people? If it's the former it's got nothing to do with the race of the accusers.
In the past when whites have been convicted of racial attacks and racially-motivated crimes I've not once heard anyone asking the question 'why?'. It is what it is - a gang of Asians targeted white girls. That in itself is worthy of more headlines than an Asian-on-Asian or white-on-white attack.

Damien 02-08-2012 11:13
Re: Child grooming gang found guilty
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Russ (Post 35458867)
In the past when whites have been convicted of racial attacks and racially-motivated crimes I've not once heard anyone asking the question 'why?'. It is what it is - a gang of Asians targeted white girls. That in itself is worthy of more headlines than an Asian-on-Asian or white-on-white attack.
Well I am asking why. Because I don't think it's as simple as someone beating up someone else because of their race. Why is important.

Russ 02-08-2012 11:17
Re: Child grooming gang found guilty
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien (Post 35458868)
Well I am asking why. Because I don't think it's as simple as someone beating up someone else because of their race. Why is important.
I don't think 'why' makes the crime any less disturbing. If anything it sounds like an attempt to deflect the blame from the perpetrators' evil ways.

Damien 02-08-2012 11:23
Re: Child grooming gang found guilty
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 35458866)
OK, moving away from the non-existent paedophile gang in Derby abusing teenage girls.....
There are other examples of groups that are white that have committed these crimes. Acting as a group isn't a Asian thing.

Quote:
The fact the gang in Rochdale were Asian, is a story, the age of the girls they were grooming, the colour of the girls they were grooming, the friction it caused between the communities and the reaction it caused.

like it or not it made good story.
I know it made a good story. The age of the girls isn't what makes it different, it was the races involved. However the exploitation and abuse of vulnerable white girls is clearly not limited to Asians, I conceded there may be a disproportionate amount of people in these areas accused of such crimes but I think that's not really about race and is a complex set of issues.

---------- Post added at 11:23 ---------- Previous post was at 11:21 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Russ (Post 35458870)
I don't think 'why' makes the crime any less disturbing. If anything it sounds like an attempt to deflect the blame from the perpetrators' evil ways.
I don't think it makes it any less disturbing at all. Understanding 'why' doesn't deflect blame from anyone but makes it a less superficial conversation that focusing on race unless the reasons race is an issue are explored.

Russ 02-08-2012 11:26
Re: Child grooming gang found guilty
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien (Post 35458872)
However the exploitation and abuse of vulnerable white girls is clearly not limited to Asians
It seemed to be in the Rochdale case.

---------- Post added at 11:25 ---------- Previous post was at 11:23 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien (Post 35458872)
I don't think it makes it any less disturbing at all. Understanding 'why' doesn't deflect blame from anyone but makes it a less superficial conversation that focusing on race unless the reasons race is an issue are explored.
Again I don't remember any questions being asked 'why' when the victims of racist attacks are white. It seems to be just accept that they were racially-motived, end of.

On that basis I don't see why anyone should asking 'why' in the Rochdale case.

---------- Post added at 11:26 ---------- Previous post was at 11:25 ----------

Another one bites the dust...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england...ester-19090706

Good riddance to the *******.

Damien 02-08-2012 11:29
Re: Child grooming gang found guilty
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Russ (Post 35458875)
Again I don't remember any questions being asked 'why' when the victims of racist attacks are white. It seems to be just accept that they were racially-motived, end of.

On that basis I don't see why anyone should asking 'why' in the Rochdale case.
So we just say that it's racially motivated and don't expand on why? Utterly illogical.

Ramrod 02-08-2012 11:30
Re: Child grooming gang found guilty
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Russ (Post 35458864)
They were a gang of Asian or non-white men. Of all the victims they could have chosen, they went for white girls.

If you cannot see a racial connection there then I'm baffled.
On top of that, iirc, the men actually stated that they targetted white girls because 'they were easy' compared to asian girls......

Russ 02-08-2012 11:32
Re: Child grooming gang found guilty
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien (Post 35458878)
So we just say that it's racially motivated and don't expand on why? Utterly illogical.
Expanding on 'why' never seems to happen when the victims of an attack are non-whites. If we only did do that when the perpetrators were white don't you see that as biased? We either ask 'why' in each case or not at all.

---------- Post added at 11:32 ---------- Previous post was at 11:31 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ramrod (Post 35458879)
On top of that, iirc, the men actually stated that they targetted white girls because 'they were easy' compared to asian girls......
I don't know how true that is but if if so then that adds fuel to the fire.

Saaf_laandon_mo 02-08-2012 11:34
Re: Child grooming gang found guilty
 
I think the points Damien is trying to make are

1) that Paedophile gangs can be bolack, white and asian.
2) the majority of paedophile female victims tend to be white girls (that's whats reported in most cases)

The question he is asking is did the asian gang target white girls because they are a) racist, or b) because they identified them as being the most vunerable targets they could find.

My opinion is (b) , also because one of the people responsible for bringing potential victims to them mainly associated herself with young white girls.

Damien 02-08-2012 11:35
Re: Child grooming gang found guilty
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Russ (Post 35458880)
Expanding on 'why' never seems to happen when the victims of an attack are non-whites. If we only did do that when the perpetrators were white don't you see that as biased? We either ask 'why' in each case or not at all.
We do but you're doing the same thing. You're not happy that why isn't asked when the accused is white so you're going to do the same when the accused is non-white? We should ask why all the time.

So why in this case? Because it's considerably more complicated than the fact the men were Asian IMO.

nomadking 02-08-2012 11:36
Re: Child grooming gang found guilty
 
One(amongst many other) hugely important difference is this:-
Quote:
who all acted individually rather than as part of a gang,
Derby case:-
Quote:
total of six victims
There seems to be no indication of violent threats or coercion. It looks like they merely took advantage of the situation, rather than setting out to try to create or force a situation.

Rochdale:-
Quote:
they had abused 47 girls, according to the police, though the true total is likely to be far higher.
Quote:
she had been raped repeatedly by a gang of men, she said, who would ply her with vodka and threaten violence if she did not submit to them.
A key factor to look at is, if you asked somebody else in the same workplace, community, or street, how likely would it be that they would take part or not report you to the police. If somebody finds it easy, then it is a sign of an underlying problem with that area or whatever. It is an indication of the percentage of that group that is potentially willing, if approached, to take part. How would you establish whether people around you, were of a similar mindset? I suppose it's easier within a pre-established gang, but outside of one it is surely more difficult and dangerous(ie reported to police).

tizmeinnit 02-08-2012 11:41
Re: Child grooming gang found guilty
 
we are all just puppets to the media

Damien all you have done is expanded this thread. Perhaps if you made its own thread the results might have been comparable.

I personally do not read the news or watch the news or visit news websites. I would have heard of neither case had it not been for here

Russ 02-08-2012 11:41
Re: Child grooming gang found guilty
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien (Post 35458884)

So why in this case? Because it's considerably more complicated than the fact the men were Asian IMO.
I just don't see that. Obviously nobody is saying that all, or even any more than a tiny minority of Asian men are like this.

But in such cases in the past when whites have attacked non-whites, I have never heard any 'why' discussions, or suggesting that it's more "complicated" than that.

It always seems to be a cut-and-dried case of them being racially motivated crimes. I say that should be applied here as it is in role-reversed situations. certain crimes are not committed by individual races only.

Damien 02-08-2012 11:49
Re: Child grooming gang found guilty
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tizmeinnit (Post 35458886)
Damien all you have done is expanded this thread. Perhaps if you made its own thread the results might have been comparable.e
Yeah. I think I messed a bit there. To ascertain if there is a problem with the media, we need to know why the original case is more newsworthy, which means we need to ask why it's important, which brings us back to square 1. :dunce:

---------- Post added at 11:49 ---------- Previous post was at 11:47 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Russ (Post 35458887)
It always seems to be a cut-and-dried case of them being racially motivated crimes. I say that should be applied here as it is in role-reversed situations. certain crimes are not committed by individual races only.
But you're saying that wrong and advocating be apply it here too! It's injustice for all! :p:

Russ 02-08-2012 11:58
Re: Child grooming gang found guilty
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien (Post 35458892)

But you're saying that wrong and advocating be apply it here too! It's injustice for all! :p:
We either ask 'why' in all cases or none. I don't see why it has only been suggested here and not in previous ones.

Pierre 02-08-2012 12:35
Re: Child grooming gang found guilty
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Saaf_laandon_mo (Post 35458883)
I think the points Damien is trying to make are

1) that Paedophile gangs can be bolack, white and asian.
2) the majority of paedophile female victims tend to be white girls (that's whats reported in most cases)

The question he is asking is did the asian gang target white girls because they are a) racist, or b) because they identified them as being the most vunerable targets they could find.
No. In the original post Damien asked no question. He made an inaccurate post trying to compare two stories that were entirely different

Quote:
A good article in The Guardian after a similar case in which a predominately white gang groomed and sexually abused children, a case which got no where near the same level of press coverage as the Asian gang did.
and made the point that this story didn't get the same level as coverage as the Rochdale one, it didn't for obvious reasons.

Regardless of his mistake, he then went on for several posts seemingly trying make a point that the men guilty of rape and abuse in Rochdale were somehow given a rough deal?????????

They were guilty and now they're banged up. Everyone had a right to be angry, and the story had a right to be publicised, and we had a right to be outraged. Regardless of the colour of the men and regardless of the colour of the girls.

I fail to see what kind of point or distinction between this crime and other similar crimes Damien was trying to make.

Julian 02-08-2012 12:40
Re: Child grooming gang found guilty
 
From the original story...

Quote:
Mohammed Shafiq, chief executive of of the Ramadhan Foundation, accused Pakistani community elders of "burying their heads in the sand" on the issue of on-street grooming.

Assistant Chief Constable Steve Heywood: "This was the most horrendous of crimes"
"There is a significant problem for the British Pakistani community," he said.

"There should be no silence in addressing the issue of race as this is central to the actions of these criminals.

"They think that white teenage girls are worthless and can be abused without a second thought; it is this sort of behaviour that is bringing shame on our community."
That is the reason why it attracted so much publicity.

Russ 02-08-2012 12:45
Re: Child grooming gang found guilty
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Julian (Post 35458924)
From the original story...



That is the reason why it attracted so much publicity.
And you can do nothing but admire the man for standing up and saying that.

Damien 02-08-2012 12:49
Re: Child grooming gang found guilty
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 35458921)

Regardless of his mistake, he then went on for several posts seemingly trying make a point that the men guilty of rape and abuse in Rochdale were somehow given a rough deal?????????
Oh that is a dishonest representation of what I was saying, I will not allow my posts to be characterised as sympathetic to child abusers. I was making the point that Asians got a rough deal with the constant invoking of their race as an important point while white people don't have their race mentioned at all.

Also The Guardian article did reference other gangs, or groups of people, even If I was mistaken with the actual incident I cited.

Quote:
I fail to see what kind of point or distinction between this crime and other similar crimes Damien was trying to make.
The use of race.

Saaf_laandon_mo 02-08-2012 12:58
Re: Child grooming gang found guilty
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 35458921)
No. In the original post Damien asked no question. He made an inaccurate post trying to compare two stories that were entirely different
.
.
.
I got that from after reading his subsequent posts, and what he was saying in them. I think he did mention more than once that paedophile victims are in the main white.

nomadking 02-08-2012 13:00
Re: Child grooming gang found guilty
 
People are trying to equate individuals taking advantage of the 'willingness' of a girl, with a gangs making plans to force girls into having sex. That is what may determine their relative newsworthiness,
Quote:
Some of the girls were beaten and forced to have sex with "several men in a day, several times a week", the jury was told.
One teenager told the jury she was forced to have sex with 20 men in one night.
A previous case in Derby
Quote:
The gang — all but one of whom were Asian — roamed the streets in a BMW with blacked-out windows looking for girls. They plied them with vodka from bottles and plastic cups *hidden under the seats, before raping or *abusing them. They were not the only victims in Derby. Up to 100 girls may have been ensnared in this horror after being lured by the smartly-dressed gang into the car outside school gates, shops, *coffee bars near the city’s railway station and a local park.
...
In rundown flats with mattresses on the floor, the girls were locked into rooms and turned into sex slaves. If they protested or refused, they were threatened with being beaten with a *hammer and even told they would be shot.
I remember in the mid '70s moving into new area and somebody on the school bus pointing to a girl(aged 14/15) from another village and saying "she's had more p***ks than a 2nd hand dartboard". He also made a unkind comment about her looks. The 2 things probably not unconnected(ie she was looking for approval/affection). I got the impression that adult men were involved, but still it was her 'willingness' that led to sex taking place and not any force.

There is a huge difference between individuals taking advantage of a girl who is 'willing' and gangs forming with the premeditated intention of entrapping girls as 'sex slaves'.

Saaf_laandon_mo 02-08-2012 13:02
Re: Child grooming gang found guilty
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 35458921)
.
.
.
.
Regardless of his mistake, he then went on for several posts seemingly trying make a point that the men guilty of rape and abuse in Rochdale were somehow given a rough deal?????????

They were guilty and now they're banged up. Everyone had a right to be angry, and the story had a right to be publicised, and we had a right to be outraged. Regardless of the colour of the men and regardless of the colour of the girls.

I fail to see what kind of point or distinction between this crime and other similar crimes Damien was trying to make.
I don;t for one moment think Damien is saying that they got a rough deal. He is discussing the manner in which the case was reported, not in the verdicts, nor is he defending the perpertrators. As I recall there is not one post in this thread defending what they did or saying they got a hard/harder time because they are Asian. I think the arguments in this thread is whether a racial motive was behind it or not, and some of teh insinuations made on the whole pakistani community.

Pierre 02-08-2012 13:12
Re: Child grooming gang found guilty
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien (Post 35458933)
I was making the point that Asians got a rough deal with the constant invoking of their race as an important point while white people don't have their race mentioned at all.
.
And that has exactly what bearing on this case or what these men were found guilty of?

---------- Post added at 13:09 ---------- Previous post was at 13:07 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Saaf_laandon_mo (Post 35458942)
I think he did mention more than once that paedophile victims are in the main white.
In this country "in the main" everything is white.

If you went to India or Pakistan I think you'd find most paedophiles were asian.

If yoe went to Nigeria I think you'd find most paedophiles where black.

again I fail to see the point

---------- Post added at 13:12 ---------- Previous post was at 13:09 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien (Post 35458933)

The use of race.
What use of race?

apart from stating that the gang were asian, which is a statement of fact I see no use of race.

Russ 02-08-2012 13:15
Re: Child grooming gang found guilty
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien (Post 35458933)
I was making the point that Asians got a rough deal with the constant invoking of their race as an important point while white people don't have their race mentioned at all.
Are you serious?!

When white people are convicted of an attack on non-whites their race is always a factor (as it should be).

Damien 02-08-2012 13:19
Re: Child grooming gang found guilty
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Russ (Post 35458957)
Are you serious?!

When white people are convicted of an attack on non-whites their race is always a factor (as it should be).
I am not playing the game of 'if it were a white person'. You can have crimes which are motivated by race and you can't have crimes they are not. If a white person robs a Asian person I don't assume it's a race-related incident unless there is evidence for it. I don't make those assumptions so I am not going to be forced to abide by that line of thinking for a Asian person.

Saaf_laandon_mo 02-08-2012 13:24
Re: Child grooming gang found guilty
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 35458950)
In this country "in the main" everything is white.

If you went to India or Pakistan I think you'd find most paedophiles were asian.

If yoe went to Nigeria I think you'd find most paedophiles where black.

again I fail to see the point

---------- Post added at 13:12 ---------- Previous post was at 13:09 ----------
The point is - are they selecting their victims because they specifically preyed on white girls for racial motives, or whether their race had anything do do with it because the majority of paedophile victims tend to be white anyway. I am refering to the colour of the victims - your comparisons above are talking about the paedophiles themselves.

Russ 02-08-2012 13:25
Re: Child grooming gang found guilty
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien (Post 35458958)
I am not playing the game of 'if it were a white person'. You can have crimes which are motivated by race and you can't have crimes they are not. If a white person robs a Asian person I don't assume it's a race-related incident unless there is evidence for it. I don't make those assumptions so I am not going to be forced to abide by that line of thinking for a Asian person.
I apologise if I made it sound like a 'game' - that's not my intention. The point I'm making is if a white person attacks a non-white it always seems to be approached as a racial crime however the reverse does not seem to be so. In either case I can accept it might not be racial - maybe the victim got beaten because they were simply in the wrong place at the wrong time.

But when a gang of one race targets victims of a different race, I cannot see how you could fail to recognise the racial significance of that.

Saaf_laandon_mo 02-08-2012 13:32
Re: Child grooming gang found guilty
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 35458950)
In this country "in the main" everything is white.

If you went to India or Pakistan I think you'd find most paedophiles were asian.

If yoe went to Nigeria I think you'd find most paedophiles where black.

again I fail to see the point
If you were actually referring to the victims colour here's a question.

If a group of white expats in India, formed a paedo gang and started grooming young kids, it would probably be right to assume that most of not all their victims would be asian- even though there must be young white girls in India.

Would they be deemed as being racist, or just exploiting the vunerable area of the society in India. Would their race actually have anything do do with their motives?

Damien 02-08-2012 13:39
Re: Child grooming gang found guilty
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Russ (Post 35458962)
I apologise if I made it sound like a 'game' - that's not my intention.
Cheers, I didn't mean to imply you were making it sound like a game. It's just a phrase I used.

Quote:
But when a gang of one race targets victims of a different race, I cannot see how you could fail to recognise the racial significance of that.
Because there are enough white people in the country that it's not statistically significant that all the victims were white. Nor is it uncommon for people to associate with people from the same community therefore it wouldn't be wise to draw conclusions from the fact all the men were Asian.

The point I'm making is if a white person attacks a non-white it always seems to be approached as a racial crime however the reverse does not seem to be so. In either case I can accept it might not be racial - maybe the victim got beaten because they were simply in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Quote:
If it is the case that any crime committed by a White British Person on a member of a ethnic minority is treated as a race crime regardless of the context then I don't that is right. It is not a view I hold or encourage. So neither will I apply it when it's the other way around. If you think it's wrong then you shouldn't apply it the other way around either. Two wrongs don't make a right.
So in this case. Is there evidence that race as a big factor? Did the Asian men target white girls exclusively because of a racial element or hatred? Was it simply they went after 'at risk' children and these just happened to be white? Did they want to stay out of their community? Is there statistical (not anecdotal) evidence that Asian communities have a higher proportion of these kinds of offenders?

If they just happen to be paedophiles that are Asian then why is there race important at all? I think the focus on race without these answers risks harming an entire community.

Russ 02-08-2012 13:42
Re: Child grooming gang found guilty
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien (Post 35458967)
Because there are enough white people in the country that it's not statistically significant that all the victims were white. Nor is it uncommon for people to associate with people from the same community therefore it wouldn't be wise to draw conclusions from the fact all the men were Asian.
Had the crime occurred in somewhere like Port Talbot that has a very very low non-white population then you'd have a point.

But Rochdale? Really?

Pierre 02-08-2012 13:43
Re: Child grooming gang found guilty
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Saaf_laandon_mo (Post 35458965)
If you were actually referring to the victims colour here's a question.

If a group of white expats in India, formed a paedo gang and started grooming young kids, it would probably be right to assume that most of not all their victims would be asian- even though there must be young white girls in India.
Correct, they would go for the easy target.

The young white girls in Rochdale, most of which were in care or other vulnerable situations were the easy target.

Quote:
Would they be deemed as being (a) racist, or (b) just exploiting the vunerable area of the society in India.
B

Quote:
Would their race actually have anything do do with their motives?
Their motives are to abuse vulnerable young girls.

Their race has nothing to do with it.

However, the fact of the situation is that it was a gang of asian men, and it will be reported as such.

Whether anyone wants to make it a racial crime, is matter for them, and/or the courts to decide.

My point of view is, I suspect, the same as yours which is that they targeted the most vulnerable girls they could, and they happened to be white. But I don't know I've never asked any of them.

But does it make the crime any less terrible?

Damien 02-08-2012 13:47
Re: Child grooming gang found guilty
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Russ (Post 35458968)
Had the crime occurred in somewhere like Port Talbot that has a very very low non-white population then you'd have a point.

But Rochdale? Really?
According to the 2001 census 78% of people are white: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rochdale

Granted the number has probably gone down but not by a massive amount.

Russ 02-08-2012 13:55
Re: Child grooming gang found guilty
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien (Post 35458971)
According to the 2001 census 78% of people are white: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rochdale

Granted the number has probably gone down but not by a massive amount.
Without knowing the current figures it's hard to comment but I understand that in the last 10 years the number of non-whites in the UK has jumped up.

Rochdale is close to Oldham and not far from Blackburn, both with high non-white areas. This would suggest that the general location would have had plenty of non-white girls to choose from.

Damien 02-08-2012 13:58
Re: Child grooming gang found guilty
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Russ (Post 35458976)
Without knowing the current figures it's hard to comment but I understand that in the last 10 years the number of non-whites in the UK has jumped up.

Rochdale is close to Oldham and not far from Blackburn, both with high non-white areas. This would suggest that the general location would have had plenty of non-white girls to choose from.
It would have jumped up but it's relative. I don't think anywhere in the UK would have massive percentage point jumps in 10 years, just because of the sheer numbers of people already living in those locations.

Also didn't they use one or two girls to draw others in?

Saaf_laandon_mo 02-08-2012 14:28
Re: Child grooming gang found guilty
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien (Post 35458978)
It would have jumped up but it's relative. I don't think anywhere in the UK would have massive percentage point jumps in 10 years, just because of the sheer numbers of people already living in those locations.

Also didn't they use one or two girls to draw others in?
Exactly. One of the women who bought girls to the gang hung around with other white girls and got victims involved that she already knew. Was she brainwashed into only bringing non asian girls? Or is it that she bought people to the gang that she knew or could associate with, fit in with? I'd say the latter.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 35458969)
My point of view is, I suspect, the same as yours which is that they targeted the most vulnerable girls they could, and they happened to be white. But I don't know I've never asked any of them.

But does it make the crime any less terrible?
Not at all, the crime is just as bad. We both suspect that the gang targeted the most vunerable girls who happened to be white. My argument in this whole thread is that it's not a racist crime, and shouldnt be painted as a racist one. I also think the race element was overly over played, and the "racially motivated" tone the commentators/media were using has probably set race relations a lot further back in that area of England.

martyh 02-08-2012 15:08
Re: Child grooming gang found guilty
 
I think in the Rochdale case the reason why many people said it was a racial case is because the defendants said it was ..........no guess work needed .

It would have been perfectly possible for the rochdale gang to pick on children in their own community just as easily as white peodo's pick on children that are close to them i.e nephews, neices ,close friends .Instead they actively chose white vulnerable children outside their own community.

A issue in both cases seems to be that the children where in care which i find deeply disturbing and one i'm surprised the guardian or any other paper hasn't mentioned and investigated more thoroughly .If children in care are so easily preyed upon by perverts then doesn't anyone think we have a bigger problem ?

Pierre 02-08-2012 15:21
Re: Child grooming gang found guilty
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Saaf_laandon_mo (Post 35458992)
Not at all, the crime is just as bad. We both suspect that the gang targeted the most vunerable girls who happened to be white. My argument in this whole thread is that it's not a racist crime, and shouldnt be painted as a racist one. I also think the race element was overly over played, and the "racially motivated" tone the commentators/media were using has probably set race relations a lot further back in that area of England.
I don't think it was a "racist" crime either.

The "racially motivated" tone may have been overplayed by the media.

But even when that's all said and done, you can't ignore the racial element to the story.

In so far that the men were all asian. It's bound to be brought to the fore and it's bound to be a sensitive issue. To pretend otherwise is to be naive.

It would be the same if the gang was all black, or all Serbian, or all Polish etc etc.


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 05:15.
Page 3 of 11 12 3 4567 Last »
Show 100 post(s) from this thread on one page

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.